6.5 Creedmoor question

[Bearcatrp]

Just read the article on snipers hide about upgrading from 308 to the 6.5. Pretty impressive stats comparing the 2. I have 2 308's and love the heck out of them but this story got me thinking. Don't know jack about 6.5 so am asking you pro's out there that have had both for your opinions on how well the 6.5 is vs the 308. All comments appreciated.
http://snipershide.scout.com/story/1496 ... -308?s=541

[gaberelli]

Are you a reloader? Are you shooting your .308 from a bolt or gas gun?

I looked at 6.5 Creedmoor when "upgrading" from .308 and ended up going 260 Rem. Very similar ballistics. Sometimes I wonder if a 6.5 CM would have been better since right now I only have it an AR10. The 6.5 CM has a few more options on bullets with its shorter case.


Heinous typos thanks to autocorrect.

[Bearcatrp]

I do reload. About 5 months now. Have 2 308 semi's and looking for a 308 bolt gun. After reading that article, makes me wonder. Don't really want to reload another cartridge. The ballistics are impressive for the 6.5 CM vs 308 though. Have plenty of brass for 308 (7.62x51) and some commercial. Some sites state less recoil with 6.5 while others state about the same as 308. Will have to find someone with a 6.5 and shoot it. Thanks for replying.

[UnaStamus]

It depends on what you plan to use them for. If you plan on shooting competition, you would be well served by switching to a .260/6.5mm cartridge. This is especially important for the reasons mentioned in the article. If you just plan on doing target shooting locally or whatever at distances under 800yds, it may or may not be worth picking up the trouble of adding additional ammo stores and reloading equipment.

The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed for the AR platform, so if you own ARs, build a separate upper and add a 6.5 to the inventory at lower cost.

If you plan on getting a bolt rifle, there isn't a whole lot out there in the commercial market. Custom guns should be on your radar.


As a sidebar, I looked into a switch to .260Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor for a sniper cartridge when we were getting new rifles. I pushed for ARs, but they wanted bolt rifles. I looked at the ballistics of a switch away from the .308 we were using, but it offered no benefit for our needs. Our snipers trained to shoot out to 200yds most days, and rarely went beyond that, and rarely would position themselves on callouts beyond that distance. They also only used a single general purpose rifle load. Other agencies employ specific purpose loads with one being an Open Air round for anti-personnel and one being a Barrier load for punching through cars and structures. Some agencies also have a third fragmenting load for "urban" use. For one general purpose load, the 6.5/.260 loads offer a lot of benefit with a flat trajectory. I have a friend who is a sniper out in Montana and he was switching from .308 to .260 because of the distances that he was deploying at. With FFPs at 400+yds away in remote locations, there is definite benefit to a flatter trajectory and more wind resistance.

For agencies with specific-purpose loads like barrier and urban loads, the .308 still reigns superior due to the substantial development of LE-specific cartridges by Federal, Hornady and Remington. The .260 and 6.5CM are catching up, but very slowly because thus far, the LE market has had very little demand for a change from .308. The one benefit to the .308 is that it's got a lot more energy. With a heavier.260 (optimal for barrier loads), you can expect muzzle energy (ME) of around 2100 ft-lbs, with about 1800ft-lbs at 100yds (common sniper engagement distance). Typical 168gr .308 loads have ME of 2700 ft-lbs, with 2300 ft-lbs at 100yds.
As of yet, there hasn't been substantial testing and development of the 6.5/.260 class like there has with the .308.

In line with the competition point, there are competitions that are setting up separate .308-Only classes for LE snipers, and LE sniper competitions that are only allowing .308 because of the 6.5/.260 loads being such an advantage at longer ranges and in wind conditions.

[jgalt]

The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed for the AR platform, so if you own ARs, build a separate upper and add a 6.5 to the inventory at lower cost.

You're thinking the 6.5 Grendel. That's the one designed for use in ARs.

While the Creedmoor will work in the AR-10 platform, that wasn't its primary design consideration. The Grendel was specifically designed for use in the AR-15, and if you're limited to that platform for whatever reason, it's the way to go if you're looking for more long-range punch. If you're looking for actual long-range target / competition use, the Creedmoor, the 260 Remington & the 6.5x47 Lapua are the 3 to consider in that bullet diameter.

[Bearcatrp]

Other agencies employ specific purpose loads with one being an Open Air round for anti-personnel

Huh? Never heard of this round. Care to elaborate? Air burst when round gets close?

[andrewP]

Other agencies employ specific purpose loads with one being an Open Air round for anti-personnel

Huh? Never heard of this round. Care to elaborate? Air burst when round gets close?

I'm fairly certain you've misunderstood UnaStamus' post. What I think he meant is that those agencies employ a normal type of load for "open air" shots, meaning unobstructed, vs a barrier blind load when they expect to have to shoot through something.

[UnaStamus]

The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed for the AR platform, so if you own ARs, build a separate upper and add a 6.5 to the inventory at lower cost.

You're thinking the 6.5 Grendel. That's the one designed for use in ARs.

While the Creedmoor will work in the AR-10 platform, that wasn't its primary design consideration. The Grendel was specifically designed for use in the AR-15, and if you're limited to that platform for whatever reason, it's the way to go if you're looking for more long-range punch. If you're looking for actual long-range target / competition use, the Creedmoor, the 260 Remington & the 6.5x47 Lapua are the 3 to consider in that bullet diameter.

No, I'm talking about the 6.5 Creedmoor. We all know that it was designed for NRA High Power. While it was not designed EXCLUSIVELY for the AR platform, it was designed to function better in the .308 AR platform than the .260Rem and 6.5-284. The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed with a slightly shorter case length at 1.920" vs the 2.035" of the .260 Remington. The SR-25/LR-308 magazines generally allow for a max cartridge OAL of around 2.800". PMAG-LRs allow for 2.820". Maxing out OAL in an AR platform can inhibit cycling reliability. Hornady designed the 6.5CM to have the shorter case length to allow heavier and longer bullets to be used in the AR platform while still maintaining reliable feeding.
There is sufficient documentation online to confirm this. An LE sniper friend confirmed this with Hornady a while ago when he was building a new heavy DMR for duty use and trying to decide between .308 and 6.5CM.

Other agencies employ specific purpose loads with one being an Open Air round for anti-personnel

Huh? Never heard of this round. Care to elaborate? Air burst when round gets close?

I'm fairly certain you've misunderstood UnaStamus' post. What I think he meant is that those agencies employ a normal type of load for "open air" shots, meaning unobstructed, vs a barrier blind load when they expect to have to shoot through something.

^this.
"Open Air" refers to a precision long range bullet with a high BC. For most agencies, this is a BTHP or OTM bullet. Some agencies use other options like Hornady A-Max and other variations. These loads are designed for maximum accuracy, but are not designed to function reliably when fired through intermediate or hard barriers like construction materials (plywood, sheetrock, doors), steel doors, auto safety glass or sheet metal panels on motor vehicles. Some of these loads like the Sierra Match King are phenomenal at accuracy, but they heavily over-penetrate and have a high risk for possible collateral damage/injury. OTM/BTHP bullets also have deflection issues with auto glass. The Hornady A-Max is phenomenal for terminal ballistics and meets FBI penetration guidelines and won't over-penetrate in most body shots, but it fragments heavily when fired through auto glass or steel.

The "barrier" loads are bullets that have a construction that allows them to punch through intermediate and hard barriers with minimal deviation and still punch through the target. Barrier bullets are either bonded lead core or copper monolithic construction. Snipers will always opt to make their shots on target with a clear background because the expectation is there will always be over-penetration since most LE snipers train for head shots. While a barrier load would be just as good in this role as an Open Air load in terms of final result, barrier loads tend to have lower accuracy. For a long time, barrier loads were expected to be 1-2MOA accurate, while Open Air loads were sub-MOA. Fortunately there have been major advances like Federal/ATK developing the 168gr Tactical Bonded Tip which added a polymer tip to the 165gr Tactical Bonded and increased accuracy from 1.5MOA to sub-MOA. Nosler developed the 168gr AccuBond LR, Barnes developed the Tipped TSX (TTSX), and Hornady developed the 165gr Interbond and 165gr GMX. Those are all now sub-MOA capable. The issue is that they're significantly more expensive than Open Air loads (about 2x the cost), and they penetrate even better now with better construction, so over-penetration is even more of an issue.

[GNCAaron]

I have a 6.5 Creedmoor, and I like it. However, if you're not set up for reloading (I'm not, yet), or if you don't plan to get set up for reloading soon, I would stick with a .308. There is a lot more factory ammo available for it, and shooting out to 500 yards (the furthest I've shot it), I only save about 2 minutes compared to those shooting a .308 (I need 10 moa with a 100 yard zero, a .308 needs about 12 or so).

[Bearcatrp]

I reload. About 5 months now. Is yours a bolt or semi? If you have shot both platforms, what are your observations between the two besides your last comment?

[GNCAaron]

Mines a semi. It's a DPMS Lower/Upper with a JP 22" supermatch barrel, with other stuff you'd expect to see on a decent precision gun - Magpul PRS, bipod, Nightforce on top, Geisele match trigger, etc. It's not a GAP-10, but it works fine.

I shot a buddy's .308 gas gun once, and the recoil is about the same. At least, if both guns weighed the same, they would feel pretty similar (his was lighter, mine is heavier, due to how we have them set up). Having to dial an extra two, three, six minutes for elevation with a .308 isn't that big of deal, but I do enjoy not having to worry about the wind as much. I never dial wind, I only hold left or right, and out to 500 yards, it really does fly pretty straight.

Since you're set up for reloading, I'd give you the thumbs up to go with the 6.5. Even with my lone option of Hornady match 140 AMAX factory ammo, I can get down to .5 moa. If I had reloading equipment (and reloading experience), I could probably shrink it down even more.

One final note, my rifle is literally one of a kind, but if I were to do it again, I'd probably buy a factory JP LRP-07 or a GAP-10. Lots of money, but worth it.

[GNCAaron]

Another quick note, I don't have any experience with bolt guns (aside from a simple Ruger .270 as a deer rifle), so I can't give you any insight into that, aside to say that bolt's are generally much easier to shoot accurately, since there's less going on while the bullet is flying down the barrel.