Over unders

[LumberZach]

I will say that I've seen how practice improves, and I certainly will, but I suppose I am looking for a double that will allow me to be competitive. Doubles are tough with my pump, while I can get them usually, I don't feel like I'm keeping up.
I would do the bt99, but that limits me to singles trap, and if I get a sporting o/u I can do just about any clay sport to some degree, with room for improving to a 10k gun.

[mmcnx2]

I'll add a field side to this discussion. If you ware looking for a versatile double that you can use in the upland field and on the range I'd get the barrels down to 28. A 30 is a lot to get up and swing when a bird flushes or you are walking through over growth.

The challenge on one gun for both is the characteristics that make them great for each are somewhat in conflict. If I was buying a upland field only gun I'd want the weight about 6.5 to 7lbs tops, 28 inch barrels at the longest. For a sporting clays only gun I'd get the weight up and barrels in the 32+ range.

And if you are a waterfowl-er, well that just adds another point on the map.

I think you'll find that if you really fall for a double after having one the second and third will be specialty guns, so my suggestion is get something mid line - it won't be perfect for any one thing but will be fine overall, get the weight in the 7+ range, 28's and add a set of extended chokes for the range. This will set you up for just about anything (heck I still have my 1975 870 Wingmaster with a 28 inch fixed mod choke and I'll never kill more trap and birds combine with all my other shotguns than that pump did in 20 years)

[grimbeaver]

In my opinion the Franchi is a nice gun but far too light for shooting any significant amount of clays. I was able to shoot a round of trap with it once and it was really easy to overswing since it was so light. About 3 years ago I picked up a used mid-90's production Ruger Red Label 12ga 28" for just over $900. It's been a workhorse and extremely reliable. I've probably put about 4000 shells through it since I got it and it just keeps going. Someday I would not mind adding a 20ga or 28ga Red Label to my collection.

[bucktail]

I got my Citori on sale for around a grand about 5 years ago. It shouldn't be cost prohibitive, but it may not be the best choice for reasons already mentioned.

[LumberZach]

Ok, next question. Is there significant difference between "sporting" and "field" models other than obvious things? At gander mountain I notice: longer barrels, fiber optic sight, extended chokes, and the finish might be a little more shiny. Is there much more than this and other obvious things, or are the actions/triggers different? Someone said the field models have auto safeties, and some not.
Also, what is the consensus on mechanical vs inertia trigger. Seems like the mechanical would be my preference, but I'm not sure.

I also notice nobody has mentioned the FNH or Winchester o/u's. Any reason why?

[smurfman]

You pretty much have it pegged regarding field and target grade guns. There is often a difference in stock dimensions too, one would have to look at the specifications for a better idea. In some models, such as the Brownings, the trigger can be adjusted a little for length of pull which some like and others curse. I will suggest if you get a gun with such a trigger, figure out how to clamp that trigger in solid otherwise it will work out at some point. Trust me on that one.

Otherwise, many of the guns share the same actions between the field guns and the entry level target guns. I can say that Browning doesn't make that distinction and I don't think my wife's Berettas do (its been a while since I last shot her field gun and the Essentials were given as gifts and I didn't have a chance to shoot them before gifting them). I personally HATE automatic safeties and have them deactivated on every gun I have used that had them. It isn't hard to do so with most and one can change them back easy enough.

As for inertia/mechanical triggers, that isn't much of an issue unless one gets into using sub-guage tubes and even then it is a case by case situation. The major problem is when one is using 410 tubes in a heavy 12 ga as there may not be enough recoil to set an inertia trigger. The other gauges seem to have no problems the little I have seen and heard. My old Citori was weighted to a bit over 10# and even with that one I had no problems with the triggers resetting when using 410 Chambermate inserts. A buddy had problems in his lighter Beretta which proves it is an individual gun thing rather than a blanket statement.

If one has such an problem, a competent gunsmith can adjust the sear engagement to work in such instances. I'm pretty sure Pat Laib in Spicer, MN can do this as well as Briley or Kolar as they make sub-gauge tubes and I beleive test them before sending the gun back home.

I ran a 30" Citori 3.5" Hunter model through all the sporting clay classes and did a fair piece in the trap and skeet fields. It was my preference for waterfowl and I would take the added weights out of the buttstock and carry it in the uplands for pheasant, sharptails, Huns, and prairie chickens. I had no issues with it weighing around 8.5# as it balanced well when carried over the shoulder broken open. It has been carried more than once for ruffs and woodcock and did fine there too. It isn't my first choice but it wasn't a bad one.

28" barrels are not a bad choice either, that really opens up the options. They are the shortest I like to use as any shorter and my follow through begins to suffer. I have a 16 ga Upland Special which has 24" tubes and it is the one I have the lowest hit percentage with. I love the gun but it is just too light up front.

I don't have a problem with 30" barrels in the uplands, many of my favorites are so equipped. I don't recall ever catching the last several inches of barrel on a bush but I and some of my guns have the scars where the fore end/ fingers have met obstacles. That also seems to be the experiences of many of the "classic" upland writers of the past. The gun I will be using on the opener Saturday has 30" barrels and I don't expect this to give me any problems. Again, it is what one is used to and has confidence in.

From the factory it fit me perfectly and I wish I would not have sold it to buy my current gun, a Citori 525 Sporting Clays with 32" barrels. The 525 looks fantastic in comparison but the extra weight up front is not what I wanted. I also had to have some wood taken off the comb as the factory dimensions were a bit off for me. It wasn't much but it was noticeably off in comparison with my old stock.

[LumberZach]

Ok, 2 more questions.
What makes a shotgun more ideal for skeet? I have it pegged for trap, but I don't really know. I guess it helps that I've only shot skeet a handful of times.
So I'm pretty much looking at the beretta 686 or browning 725. I'm sure it'll just come down to preference for most people.
Thanks for all the help guys. This is way more information than I expected to get. I guess we have a few shotguners around here!

[mmcnx2]

A dedicated skeet gun is going to pattern different than a field gun. It is also going to vary in balance and stock fit. Skeet, Clays, Sporting and Field all can have very unique guns, but you can play them all with a basic mid weight 28 inch barreled O/U with multiple choke tubes.

Here is an older article that explains the terminology a bit. http://www.herosarms.com/Selecting.htm

My 12 has 28 inch tubes as does my CZ 28 SxS, my 20 Rizzini has 27's fixed chokes and my 28 Parker has 26 fixed chokes.

The 2 fixed choke guns were built specifically for upland and were never intended for the range, but interesting to explain how fit is more important than almost any thing - The Rizzini I had custom made in Italy, I was measured and fit for the gun, although built as a pheasant gun I have shot my best sporting clays round with it over anything else I've ever shot, however it did kick the crap out of me doing it.

The moral is all this info is great and it will make your head spin but in the end get what you can shoot well, it may have 26 or 34 inch barrels, it might weight 8+ lbs or be under 6, the length of pull or rise might not be within the norm, but if you can break what what your pointing at thats what counts.

Much like handguns I'd strongly encourage you to try before you buy, $2000-$5000+ mistakes are a lot harder to live with than $500ish on a handgun you don't like and the shotgun is much harder to re-home.

[JJ]

Skeet is all about swinging quikly on target transitions. When i shot a lot of skeet, I stuck to a 26" 686. For general hunting/Sporting clays a 28" is a good compromise. for trap, go as long as you are comfortable with.

[grimbeaver]

Recently I was comparing the field and sporting Citori 725 and noticed that the rib was different. Caught me rather by surprise. On the field model the rib is lower and flush with the back of the receiver. On the sporting model the rib has a small rise to it over top of the chambers. Something about the field model just didn't feel like it sighted as well for me. Sometimes the differences between models are definitely hard to spot.

I've thought about that FNH SC1 several times. They have/had one at Arnzen Arms. Already having a 12ga o/u though I've never been able to bring myself to spring for one.

[LumberZach]

Well I know trap guns pattern higher for raising targets, but I've been curious if sporting or skeet models pattern differently than regular hunting guns.

I think the fn and Winchester guns look nice, but I guess the browning is a little more the gun to have. I will say a beretta with a 30" barrel is looking like the thing to do.


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[Holland&Holland]

I've thought about that FNH SC1 several times. They have/had one at Arnzen Arms.

I love mine. Not saying I am an expert by any means but I do think the adjustable comb helps me mount it constantly. Plus I at least look like I know what I am doing. The real key I have found is to only shoot clays with people who are much worse shots than you.

[smurfman]

There really is no difference in "patterning" between the various models as IC is IC, Full is Full etc. Pattern is determined by pellet percentages in a given area or by what is marked on the tube/barrel for most, not where the pellets end up in relation to the bead (point of aim and point of impact) It may seem trivial but it makes it easier to understand from both sides when a common language is used.

Higher ribs on target guns started as a means to divert/mitigate the mirage caused as the barrel warms up. That can interfere with seeing the target which affects hitting it. A field gun typically is not shot enough for this to occur.

Traditionally, trap guns were set up to "shoot high" as the targets were generally rising. This was particularly true for specialists shooting 16 yard singles but was not as extreme for long Handicap and doubles. When I shot a lot of competitive trap I thought myself disadvantaged using my flatter shooting guns. I soon learned that there were a number of top shooters that did not subscribe to that practice, or at least not to the extremes some think. Shooting techniques and practices change as well as some shooters just never adapting well to the "norm" so one cannot cast in stone what is best.

Skeet is a game of timing and mental concentration. One does not need a dynamic handling gun for it but they do need one which allows one to be consistent in their shooting. Most seem to have their guns setup to throw their patterns fairly flat or slightly high depending on how they wish to see the bird. It is really not much different than a field gun. The targets follow the same path at the same speed which takes away most variables. I shot at Metro and watched a guy go out on his Lark and shoot at least a 20 unless he was ailing more than normal. He had to place the shotgun in a fork as he could not hold it up. He would get the correct hold point, call "Pull" and smoke the clay without moving the gun. Station 8 was tough for him, he could not bend over low enough to get a good line on the bird. Still he broke one fairly regularly.

Sporting clays guns are set up much like skeet guns or toward trap guns depending on the shooter. They tend to be a bit livelier in the barrel than the others due to the old requirement of not pre mounting the gun and different flight paths but that also means something different to each shooter. I like a slightly high shooting gun with some weight up front but a buddy thinks my Browning is a club. His gun is too whippy for my taste but it works very well for him- much better than the Beretta he had. It all depends on the individual. His would be a better International/Olympic trap or skeet gun than mine as well as being a great choice for live pigeon competitions.

[goalie]

Hey all,

Does anybody here shoot shotguns much? I've shot a lot of trap, but I've slowed down on that and doing sporting clays more lately and I've somewhat decided I need an o/u. So what do you guys like for shooting O/U's? I guess I want a browning, but $2,000 will take a while to save up for. CZ looks like they make nice ones though.


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I am not an "expert," but would go with something like a Beretta A300 semi (it is adjustable for comb and cast) for $650 or so before spending the same on an O/U.

A neighbor just bought a CZ, and, while it worked for the 100 rounds of sporting clays he shot with us, it didn't seem like something I would rather have than a decent semi for the same price.

YMMV

[LumberZach]

I've been hearing rumors that ruger is making the red label again. Can anyone confirm?
Also, is there a maximum load you can shoot with some of these higher end o/u's? I don't plan on shooting buckshot, but it'd be nice to know the gun won't explode if I decide to.


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