Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby Erud on Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:05 pm

Hmac wrote:
yuppiejr wrote:So if the "autopsy" process doesn't take into account the most important consideration (in your mind) in buying a rifle why are it's findings even relevant? Evaluating the DPMS Oracle and comparing it to a milspec rifle wasn't revealing anything new, anyone who's taken a few minutes to look at their spec sheet would have noted most of the variations. A useful comparison would have been to take a "milspec" rifle that DOES hit all of the marks and compare it side by side with a higher priced 'milspec" rifle from a boutique maker and see how they both survive in the real world.



Well, sustandard materials in the build might be in-spec, but they're still sub-standard materials. It might shoot perfectly well for awhile before the bolt shears, or the mag catch wears, or you lose a SS detent, or the RE breaks while you're mortaring a stuck Wolf shell casing, or you get throat erosion at 5000 rounds.

I don't want to get into the mil-spec BS. That is such a misused and bastardized term that it's meaningless. Let's just say, "equivalent of Colt's TDP". LPKs with the majority of parts imported from China might very likely be labeled as "mil-spec", but have nothing at all to do with the TDP.


You have barrels that don't show throat erosion by 5000 rounds? :shock:
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby rtk on Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:20 pm

Good information and a great thread.... ;)
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby 2in2out on Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:37 pm

I'm kind of an admirer of Alex Pro (APF) - at least, all the parts are actually made in the USA. Not sure how they stack up, quality-wise, though.
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby yuppiejr on Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:02 pm

rtk wrote:Good information and a great thread.... ;)


What would a gun forum be without a regular rehash of the classic "if it's not Colt/BCM/Novenske/LMT/Daniel Defense AR, it's a *******'s boom stick" debate.
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby UnaStamus on Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:41 pm

Understand that the Autopsy series is just starting, and it's meant to give an overall basic armorer view of new manufacture rifles out of the box and tested for functioning. It's by no means an in-depth test of long-term durability.

The first assertion that PSA is "just as good as" is somewhat misleading. PSA does a very good job at convincing people of this, but they fail to mention certain specifics about where they cut costs and why. To make things clear, PSA does source numerous components from FN, but they're not the same components that FN is using to fill military contracts. FN is required by the TDP to use Grade 1 components for their MIL/GOV contract rifles. All components that do not meet that grading are then pushed down the line to contract buyers (like PSA). Companies can obtain the Grade 1 components, but only when available. PSA does not use the same components that BCM or Noveske do, despite those companies obtaining components from FN. The barrels are not the same, as they are built to separate specifications. For instance, PSA specs their barrels to run a wider range of ammunition, all the way down to underpowered Comm-bloc steel FMJ. BCM specs theirs to regulate and cycle milspec 5.56 loads. Noveske has a separate chamber spec that is slightly tighter than BCM. The rollmarks have nothing to do with the final product, as the machining and manufacturing that occurs to the components occurs in different locations.

The problem with saying that numerous companies are the same is very inaccurate for the same reason above. You don't need to be a professional door kicker or 3-gunner to buy a high quality rifle. The concept of buying a high-quality rifle should come down to the need to not want to have to deal with mechanical problems and chronic malfunctions.

Any rifle can fail, because a rifle is a mechanical device. The goal is to mitigate risk, not exacerbate it. We do this by using quality components to reduce the risk of failure. This is not exclusive to rifles. In car engines, forged pistons have far more strength than cast pistons. In those engines, synthetic oil far outperforms conventional oil. In optics, apochromatic glass is far superior to achromatic glass and produces far better optical quality, just as achromatic is far superior to chromatic glass. The name of the game is RISK, and how you reduce it.

Specific models do in fact reflect the quality of a company as a whole. If a company is willing to unreasonably cut corners to make one rifle, are they really worth investing in at a higher level? Case in point-

DPMS continues to sell all of their non-LE rifles with commercial receiver extensions, despite the industry standard for aftermarket buttstocks all being sized for milspec extensions. The corners that DPMS cuts on the Oracle are the same corners they cut on most of their other rifles. None of the railed gas blocks DPMS puts on their rifles are same-lane as the upper receiver. DPMS does not make a single rifle that can meet a US GOV/MIL solicitation. Further, their rifles do not meet quality requirements set by the 10 largest LE departments in their own state.
I have seen problems, or been told of problems directly by other LE armorers, in a wide array of DPMS rifles. The most common offender though is the AP4 carbine. The following are chronic problems:
-pins walking out due to poor tolerances
-tolerance stacking of components, particularly with upper and lower receivers (this is why some are really tight, and others rattle)
-extractors breaking
-springs breaking/snapping
-underpowered springs
-gas key bolts not Grade 8 fasteners
-gas key not properly staked (I've had to restake every DPMS gas key I've come across)
-chrome missing from inside of the bolt carrier
-micro fractures in bolt lugs (new bolts)
-.223rem spec chambers in more than 50% of barrels marked "5.56"
-every barrel has a gas port that is too large/over-gassed (done intentionally)
-surface annodizing flaking off
-no sign of annodizing penetrating the recommended 2mils into the metal
-improperly installed barrel nuts that push the gas tube to one side, rounding the edge of the gas tube bell creating a gas leak in the gas key over time
-chrome missing from barrels that were ordered with chrome lining
-loose castle nuts
-upper receiver picatinny rails out-of-spec and being too wide or too narrow
-poor machining/visible machining marks
-out-of-spec magwells that seat the magazine too high or too low

That doesn't include the numerous horrifying accounts of their atrocious and incompetent customer service. While the Oracle is the cheapest of the bunch, it's a sign of everything that's wrong with that company. BCM, LMT, Colt, DD, Sionics, JP, HK and other top-tier companies don't sell lower quality "bargain" models, because they don't want their names associated with that kind of activity.

Sorry to blow out the PSA bubble, but I've seen PSA components fail. I've seen junk components from them. While I think they are a decent mid-grade company, they are certainly not on par with companies who use similar components like BCM or Noveske. PSA has on several occasions become a victim of their own actions. In 2008 and 2012 most notably, they cut their QC to meet production numbers. As a result, they had numerous components put out that were out of spec. You can do a search and find internet posts of people complaining about bad components around those times. This included receivers and trigger groups. I personally saw one receiver where the trigger and hammer pin holes didn't line up from right to left. I've seen a crooked hammer and I've seen their line of MIM components that have burrs and knicks. A far cry from the quality control of the companies that they are being compared to. The best companies don't sacrifice QC.

I'm not saying that PSA doesn't care, because they do appear to want to put out a good product. It's just that if you understand where the costs add up in rifles, you will understand that a $600 PSA cannot match the quality of a $1000 BCM or $1500 DD. The profit margin on those rifles is no where near what people think they are.

I have been to numerous rifle training courses with national instructors and with LE agencies, and I've been in training with numerous agencies on local, state, federal and military level.
I have never seen a DD or BCM rifle malfunction as a result of mechanical issue. Magazine-yes. Ammo-yes. Unsifficient lube-yes. Mechanical-No. The same can be said for every HK, LaRue, Noveske, LWRC, Sionics, and other high level brands. The mechanical issues they do have are "freak occurrences" and rarely happen.

What it ultimately comes down to is percentages. What percent of rifles require repair or modification to function? When are those repairs needed in the life cycle of the rifle? Experience has taught me that the percentages drastically favor the expensive "professional face-shooter" rifles.

No, the average civilian shooter does not NEED a top tier rifle. However, should a shooter decide to stress that rifle someday in a multi-day shooting course (which many here have done), they are going to want a rifle that they can rely on. At a certain point, you have to plan ahead. It's like buying a gun safe that is 1 or 2 sizes larger than you need- it's just a good bet that someday you may want it and be upset you didn't do it.

Food for thought... Like HMAC I'm just going to be sitting back watching the butthurt roll in. I'm just throwing some gasoline on the fire. :D
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby yuppiejr on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:52 am

I don't see much gasoline here, just the same tired self-justification and "one time at band camp" stories, as long as you are comfortable that what you paid for your rifle makes it better than everyone else's rifle, operate on. :)
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby Hmac on Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:29 am

yuppiejr wrote:I don't see much gasoline here, just the same tired self-justification and "one time at band camp" stories, as long as you are comfortable that what you paid for your rifle makes it better than everyone else's rifle, operate on. :)


Are you talking about the self-justification by those who buy a consumer grade rifle and then write here about how "it's just as good as" a Colt/Noveske/BCM? Because that's how these threads usually go, and it looks like some folks want to take this one in the same direction. I agree it's inevitable. Every Yugo buyer wants to believe that their car is as good as a Mercedes.

I like to own good tools. Not tools that I have to convince myself are "just as good as".
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby yuppiejr on Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:02 am

Hmac wrote:
yuppiejr wrote:I don't see much gasoline here, just the same tired self-justification and "one time at band camp" stories, as long as you are comfortable that what you paid for your rifle makes it better than everyone else's rifle, operate on. :)


Are you talking about the self-justification by those who buy a consumer grade rifle and then write here about how "it's just as good as" a Colt/Noveske/BCM? Because that's how these threads usually go, and it looks like some folks want to take this one in the same direction. I agree it's inevitable. Every Yugo buyer wants to believe that their car is as good as a Mercedes.

I like to own good tools. Not tools that I have to convince myself are "just as good as".


You guys are silly with your 5.11 pants and you "consumer" vs "operator" grade stuff, like I said, whatever helps you justify spending an extra $400 for a cool roll mark on a rifle built with the same components - clearly the marketing departments have done their job well. :)
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby Ghost on Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:07 am

yuppiejr wrote:
Ghost wrote:Hmac, it's kind of a Pepsi/Coke or Ford/Chevy thing but just thought it was interesting.


It's more than that, Ford, Chevy, Ram, Toyota, etc.. are not simply building trucks from a single set of plans and specs like a milspec AR15 rifle. There are general performance expectations within, say, the half ton pickup category and each takes a different approach to engineering their vehicles to meet performance and comfort standards at various price points.

My Ford/Chevy comment above was only in reference to the moly grease vs anti seize discussion.

My PSA upper is not the same quality as my LaRue upper. I'm actually thinking of re-barrelling my PSA upper with a Noveske barrel just to mess with people.
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby Hmac on Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:23 am

yuppiejr wrote:
Hmac wrote:
yuppiejr wrote:I don't see much gasoline here, just the same tired self-justification and "one time at band camp" stories, as long as you are comfortable that what you paid for your rifle makes it better than everyone else's rifle, operate on. :)


Are you talking about the self-justification by those who buy a consumer grade rifle and then write here about how "it's just as good as" a Colt/Noveske/BCM? Because that's how these threads usually go, and it looks like some folks want to take this one in the same direction. I agree it's inevitable. Every Yugo buyer wants to believe that their car is as good as a Mercedes.

I like to own good tools. Not tools that I have to convince myself are "just as good as".


You guys are silly with your 5.11 pants and you "consumer" vs "operator" grade stuff, like I said, whatever helps you justify spending an extra $400 for a cool roll mark on a rifle built with the same components - clearly the marketing departments have done their job well. :)

When I saw the thread title and then the subject of the first autopsy, I was confident that there would be a head-in-sand Yugo approach to firearm quality from some folks in this thread despite UnaStamus' sophisticated attempt to educate. So far, we're still missing some of the other Bushmaster/PSA faithful, but I suspect they'll be along soon. As you mentioned, the course of this thread is totally unsurprising.

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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby yuppiejr on Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:47 am

Hmac wrote:You persist in a head-in-sand Yugo approach to firearm quality despite UnaStamus' sophisticated attempt to educate you.


Having owned both PSA and BCM carbines I have no horse in this race, brand loyalty is not a thing with me; rifles built with "known" components built to published and measurable standards are... I assemble my own AR platform rifles these days so I don't depend on a manufacturer for support and prefer to start from scratch than buy and then modify someone else's work. The only thing I've been "educated" about in the posts here so far is a lot of personal opinion and incorrect assumptions mixed in with a lot of the typical marketing FUD that people get sold with certain products.

Not all DPMS or PSA products are the same, nor are all BCM products... most manufacturers carry a line of products that hit a number of price points and feature sets depending on who's buying them and for what purpose. BCM and Colt, for example, don't offer any real "budget" offerings (unless you count the Colt Custom licensed stuff) - while PSA, DPMS, and many others build both low cost items and some that compete directly with the "mainstream" offerings from the self-identified "Operator" brands.

It's this mainstream segment of the market I find most interesting, as, for example, the technical specifications of the %100 made in the USA $600 PSA/FN "premium" M4gery products typically match the $800-$1000 BCM/FN "standard" grade products. When I've broken down both platforms to compare items beyond barrels/receiver/bolt carrier group components not usually called out in the published specs, I noted that the small parts in BOTH were from Stag arms and the build quality was very similar in terms of attention to detail. I simply don't buy the "the PSA is made of substandard parts" as a general statement because there is no factual support for this based on published specs and personal observation of the components in question. Yes, if you are looking at the PSA Freedom or PTAC upper and comparing it to a BCM Standard upper you will start to see where cost is compromising the design and quality of the final product... but the PSA premium product is a different animal entirely, as are some of the Stag and Rock River value oriented products.

I've worked on the production line for a contract manufacturer of OEM AR components with military cage codes including some currently used by BCM and seen first hand that the only difference from one manufacturer's version of a product to another's is the roll mark. If it makes someone feel better that the roll mark imbues magical properties into the end product that's their business, don't let the facts get in the way of your delusion. :)
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:27 am

It never ceases to amaze me how much bandwidth is spent on topics like this.

But by all means, carry on.

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Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby Ron Burgundy on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:37 am

Rip Van Winkle wrote:It never ceases to amaze me how much bandwidth is spent on topics like this.

But by all means, carry on.

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Did you see the thread about the pontoon boat & deer?
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:45 am

Ron Burgundy wrote:Did you see the thread about the pontoon boat & deer?

As a matter of fact I did. Lot's of undies in a knot over that also. ;)
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Re: Autopsy of a Rifle: DPMS Oracle

Postby yuppiejr on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:20 am

I prefer a toga, better airflow and less chafing... just gotta watch the wind gusts or I end up bringing frog-town downtown.

How the hell did I miss the deer-pontoon thread? I'm going to borrow a set of HMAC's 5.11 briefs and go track it down.
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