The Truth about 6.5 Ammo

[hard h2o]

I understand that there are some real nice and accurate ARs. As I stated I have shot long distance with the platform albeit in it's M16 configuration and not at game.

I am sure there are some very capable rounds now chambered. When you are talking long range at game it still seems to me that they compromise power for the ability to fit the round within the working envelope of the AR.

[Ghost]

I am commenting on several comments, yours included, so in a way yes I am arguing with you.

To your 2nd question, I would love to but it would take sometime to compile. I do consider myself a student of ballistic study and real world application of said study.

Lets just start with deer sized game (and I further contend this refers to your average whitetail, not trophy class). I would contend that the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are 200 yard or less cartridges. If your distance increases then your cartridge would need to step up to the AR-10 or .308 family of cartridges (.308, 7mm-08, 6.5 Creed, .260, etc).

I have shot deer and studied the wound channels using 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39, .30-30, .223.

I have also shot deer with .308, 7mm08, 7x57, .25-06, .270, 7mm mag, .303 brit, .243

These have all been with varying bullet construction and at varying distances. I need much more real world experience to write the book on this of course but there is truly knowledge to be gained on seeing how various bullets perform in deer pushed at various velocities. Now, no doubt the old adage it is the Indian not the arrow holds true as many a poacher has been known to be very effective with a .22lr but that is typically as close range and with very specific shot placement. Here we are talking about extreme ranges and at the extreme end of the performance spectrum for some of these cartridges. That is not where and ethical hunter plays IMHO. An ethical hunter is looking for proven performance and a safety factor in that performance to account for the conditions one might encounter in the field.

Hope this helps

So how much energy is needed to ethically kill a deer? Don't they say that the 30-30 has killed more deer than any other cartridge?

[Holland&Holland]

I am commenting on several comments, yours included, so in a way yes I am arguing with you.

To your 2nd question, I would love to but it would take sometime to compile. I do consider myself a student of ballistic study and real world application of said study.

Lets just start with deer sized game (and I further contend this refers to your average whitetail, not trophy class). I would contend that the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are 200 yard or less cartridges. If your distance increases then your cartridge would need to step up to the AR-10 or .308 family of cartridges (.308, 7mm-08, 6.5 Creed, .260, etc).

I have shot deer and studied the wound channels using 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39, .30-30, .223.

I have also shot deer with .308, 7mm08, 7x57, .25-06, .270, 7mm mag, .303 brit, .243

These have all been with varying bullet construction and at varying distances. I need much more real world experience to write the book on this of course but there is truly knowledge to be gained on seeing how various bullets perform in deer pushed at various velocities. Now, no doubt the old adage it is the Indian not the arrow holds true as many a poacher has been known to be very effective with a .22lr but that is typically as close range and with very specific shot placement. Here we are talking about extreme ranges and at the extreme end of the performance spectrum for some of these cartridges. That is not where and ethical hunter plays IMHO. An ethical hunter is looking for proven performance and a safety factor in that performance to account for the conditions one might encounter in the field.

Hope this helps

So how much energy is needed to ethically kill a deer? Don't they say that the 30-30 has killed more deer than any other cartridge?

Sure but not at 400 yards. You do realize that the energy drops as the yardage increases correct?

[BigDog58]

You could always shoot them long range with a 50 BMG and Amax bullets. The 750 gr would still have approx 9000 ft lbs at 500 yards (Only 14,000) at the muzzle)

[Ghost]

I am commenting on several comments, yours included, so in a way yes I am arguing with you.

To your 2nd question, I would love to but it would take sometime to compile. I do consider myself a student of ballistic study and real world application of said study.

Lets just start with deer sized game (and I further contend this refers to your average whitetail, not trophy class). I would contend that the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are 200 yard or less cartridges. If your distance increases then your cartridge would need to step up to the AR-10 or .308 family of cartridges (.308, 7mm-08, 6.5 Creed, .260, etc).

I have shot deer and studied the wound channels using 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39, .30-30, .223.

I have also shot deer with .308, 7mm08, 7x57, .25-06, .270, 7mm mag, .303 brit, .243

These have all been with varying bullet construction and at varying distances. I need much more real world experience to write the book on this of course but there is truly knowledge to be gained on seeing how various bullets perform in deer pushed at various velocities. Now, no doubt the old adage it is the Indian not the arrow holds true as many a poacher has been known to be very effective with a .22lr but that is typically as close range and with very specific shot placement. Here we are talking about extreme ranges and at the extreme end of the performance spectrum for some of these cartridges. That is not where and ethical hunter plays IMHO. An ethical hunter is looking for proven performance and a safety factor in that performance to account for the conditions one might encounter in the field.

Hope this helps

So how much energy is needed to ethically kill a deer? Don't they say that the 30-30 has killed more deer than any other cartridge?

Sure but not at 400 yards. You do realize that the energy drops as the yardage increases correct?

Damn, thought I posted a response last night. Where'd it go?

Anyway, in short, 1000 ft lbs of energy is considered enough for white tail, you don't need "safety factor" above that, it doesn't kill them any deader. Grendel has that at 400 yards.

Hell typical compound and crossbows are only somewhere between 80 and 100 ft lbs.

If you take a look at some ballistic chart comparisons you'll see that many 6.5, loads even though starting slower than .308, will efficiently carry that energy and surpass .308 energy at distance.

[Holland&Holland]

BS. I think you are getting 6.5 Creedmore data and 6.5 Grendel data confused.

The 6.5 Grendel is a very good cartridge, however it is not in .308 class. Just to check myself, as I was wrong once long ago, I checked Hornady's hunting load for the grendal a 123 grain sst against their 150 grain sst for .308 (not the super performance but their standard load). The old .308 says ahead of it out to 500. Not that in my mind a .308 is a 500 yard deer cartridge either.

[acs75]

I gave up on this thread awhile ago. Thought it was over with. Now it has evolved to taking deer at 400 yards with 6.5 grendal! Even elk! You got to be kidding me! I wouldn't take either with 308 at that distance.
Seriously. WHY? Why are you trying to make this cartridge something more then what it is? Everyone can agree it's a nice cartridge. But let's at least be ethical hunters here. Why do You need to prove to everyone that this thing is a 300WM or at very least a 308!? It's Not it Can't it Won't be. It's ok that it isn't. But some reason you are continuing this. This only hurts your argument. Plus you are giving false or at very least misleading information to others that don't have the knowledge that we do.
Let it go. Be an ethical hunter. Care that wounding animal for Any length of time is something that should affect All hunters when choosing a cartridge and the shot they are going to take. You seem to miss this part of what we are saying.

Like we said just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Your life your conscious. Take a deer at any range you want.

Side note I'm building a 6.5 grendal in AR-15. For Target shooting

[Ghost]

BS. I think you are getting 6.5 Creedmore data and 6.5 Grendel data confused.

The 6.5 Grendel is a very good cartridge, however it is not in .308 class. Just to check myself, as I was wrong once long ago, I checked Hornady's hunting load for the grendal a 123 grain sst against their 150 grain sst for .308 (not the super performance but their standard load). The old .308 says ahead of it out to 500. Not that in my mind a .308 is a 500 yard deer cartridge either.

I didn't specify what range

[Ghost]

I gave up on this thread awhile ago. Thought it was over with. Now it has evolved to taking deer at 400 yards with 6.5 grendal! Even elk! You got to be kidding me! I wouldn't take either with 308 at that distance.
Seriously. WHY? Why are you trying to make this cartridge something more then what it is? Everyone can agree it's a nice cartridge. But let's at least be ethical hunters here. Why do You need to prove to everyone that this thing is a 300WM or at very least a 308!? It's Not it Can't it Won't be. It's ok that it isn't. But some reason you are continuing this. This only hurts your argument. Plus you are giving false or at very least misleading information to others that don't have the knowledge that we do.
Let it go. Be an ethical hunter. Care that wounding animal for Any length of time is something that should affect All hunters when choosing a cartridge and the shot they are going to take. You seem to miss this part of what we are saying.

Like we said just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Your life your conscious. Take a deer at any range you want.

Side note I'm building a 6.5 grendal in AR-15. For Target shooting

Thank you for setting me straight. Once my creedmore arrives I will sell all my five Grendels and get me a fudd hat to wear.

[Holland&Holland]

1st, we are talking hunting, not paper punching. Get some hunting loads to compare.

2nd at the distances you are pointing to you are very the ethical limits of any of these cartridges so your point is pointless.

I would guess that someone could post a 6.5 creedmore chart that would make all these look bad.

Then old man could come along and post a .50 chart that would blow that away.

My point stands, shooting a deer or an elk at 400 yards with grenade is not hunting and suggesting to someone looking for a deer cartridge on an online forum that it is, is down right wrong.

[Ghost]

1st, we are talking hunting, not paper punching. Get some hunting loads to compare.

2nd at the distances you are pointing to you are very the ethical limits of any of these cartridges so your point is pointless.

I would guess that someone could post a 6.5 creedmore chart that would make all these look bad.

Then old man could come along and post a .50 chart that would blow that away.

My point stands, shooting a deer or an elk at 400 yards with grenade is not hunting and suggesting to someone looking for a deer cartridge on an online forum that it is, is down right wrong.

I never once said anybody should take a shot they are not capable of. I've killed lots of deer. I shot one with a 30-06 and determined it was too much gun. My Grendel's are my go to for anything in Minnesota.

[acs75]

You also seriously brought up hunting with SBR. Again why. You are an unethical hunter if that's what you are doing and advocating 400 yard plus shots.

[acs75]

[quote="Holland&Holland"]More like an unethical person

So that's why you like 6.8 more, it limits you to ethical hunting ranges. Got it.

The 6.8 comment was tongue in cheek. Both are adequate for deer at reasonable ranges and honestly are a horse a piece.

What I take issue with is when someone tries to portray a low power round like the grendal as a long range hunting option.

I thought that was clear.

I'm not advocating that people shoot beyond their skill level.

Many whitetails have been taken in the 300-500 yard range. Elk 400+.

Longest kill I know of was 752 yards that DRT'd an antelope with a high shoulder spine shot and complete pass through.

Hog hunters have been lining them up and getting two for ones at triple digit ranges.

The 6.5 bullets are extremely efficient and highly effective they don't need high speed.[/quote]



This is from my AR-15 with 62 grain bullet on Monday. Shooting from 325 650 825 yards. I am a capable shooter. All my hits and most of my misses will kill a deer. Evaluating! Should I use this setup at any of those distances to hunt deer? And Elk? (Yes you brought up Elk and specified distances) You continue to say capable shooter. What about capable rifle and caliber? Why do you want
push the limits of the shooter rifle cartridge when killing an animal? Use the ethical tool/setup for the job.

These chuckle heads shooting animals at those distances with Most cartridge n rifles is NOT ethical. 99% of them aren't showing their misses. They don't talk about the wounded animal that got away. Or tracked it for hours before it died. You glorify that. I find it despicable.

[Ghost]

Again, I did not say everyone should go buy a Grendel and go see how far they can kill something. I'm just saying it's possible.

Over on 65grendel they are compiling statistics on kills, I believe they are upwards of 500 now and they've found about 60% are DRT. But the whitetail at 698 yards did tip over about 10 feet from where it was hit.

What I have said is that a rifle with half the recoil and 3/4 or less weight makes for a better hunting rifle and the shooter will be more successful.

[acs75]

How about there misses. It lost deer. Nobody talks about that! I can show you I believable groups I shot at any distance. Only have done it couple times. They are far and few between.
You haven't factored in wind cold branches, time it takes bullet to get there, deer moved. Anything can be done. I can take deer with my AR-15 at 800 yards. Should I hell no!!!
Blind squirrel finds acorn once in awhile.


Again just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Be a decent human being n ethical hunter.