The Truth about 6.5 Ammo

[Rodentman]

I'm still thinking about those acorns mentioned earlier.

[Holland&Holland]

I respect your opinion albeit wrong (lol). You certainly at very least have done some research.

You can reply to what I said. Hopefully you read it all first.

But I think we have beaten this dead horse long enough.
I enjoyed that debate. Thanks for conceding the win to me on this one lol

No, I can see you don't want to educate yourself on it.

A Grendel at 400 exceeds what is believed to be the minimum energy for killing deer. That's my point, it is not wrong.

To your line of reasoning, a shooter as I mentioned above is not less ethical than one using a 300 win mag. Especially when the 300 win mag guy shoots the deer in the ass because he thinks he can shoot through a twig or flinches anticipating the recoil.

Both rounds have more than enough energy but the shooter must shoot well, the 300 doesn't change that there is no additional "safety factor".

I understand your point but you are flat out wrong. the Grendal does not exceed the performance of the .308 with hunting loads at 400 yards. My point is that it is a great deer cartridge to about 200, if you find you need to stretch that, the grendal is not that performer. The .308 gets you a bit more and a bit more power under that. Shot placement is everything, however how the bullet performs can also be a factor in your success. If one needs to shoot an elk at 400 neither is your cartridge in my opinion.

[Ghost]

I respect your opinion albeit wrong (lol). You certainly at very least have done some research.

You can reply to what I said. Hopefully you read it all first.

But I think we have beaten this dead horse long enough.
I enjoyed that debate. Thanks for conceding the win to me on this one lol

No, I can see you don't want to educate yourself on it.

A Grendel at 400 exceeds what is believed to be the minimum energy for killing deer. That's my point, it is not wrong.

To your line of reasoning, a shooter as I mentioned above is not less ethical than one using a 300 win mag. Especially when the 300 win mag guy shoots the deer in the ass because he thinks he can shoot through a twig or flinches anticipating the recoil.

Both rounds have more than enough energy but the shooter must shoot well, the 300 doesn't change that there is no additional "safety factor".

I understand your point but you are flat out wrong. the Grendal does not exceed the performance of the .308 with hunting loads at 400 yards. My point is that it is a great deer cartridge to about 200, if you find you need to stretch that, the grendal is not that performer. The .308 gets you a bit more and a bit more power under that. Shot placement is everything, however how the bullet performs can also be a factor in your success. If one needs to shoot an elk at 400 neither is your cartridge in my opinion.

I never said it exceeded the .308 at 400, you assumed that

[OldmanFCSA]

This has been an interesting discussion, but please keep it from getting too personal.

I've got a rifle that could be used to take game at a mile or more - but I never will shoot any animal at that range out of respect for the animal.
I've shot whitetail deer a a distance of 2" with a 22LR revolver - was it ethical, don't know, but it fed my family a few days.
I've shot the most deer using a 12 gauge deer slug out of my Ithaca 37, all at ranges under 75 yards. This is my ethical maximum range for this ammo.
I've shot many deer with a centerfire rifle whether 7mm-08, 308, 30-06, 300winMag, 7.62X39, 444Marlin, 45-70, and one with a 243 (again meat hunting with a shot thru the eyeball at 175 +/- yards).

If I would use an AR-15 style rifle, it would be chambered in 7.62X39. The one I have is accurate and very dependable deer killer once shot placement has been done properly.
If I would use an AR-10 style rifle, it would be chambered in 308Win. Again, the one I have is accurate and dependable, but too heavy to carry for long periods of time.

My AR-50 is a target rifle that weighs 49.76 pounds for benchrest work, ands over 55 pounds as setup with a bipod and monopod. My ammo is 808 grain solid brass over 250 grains of Reloder-50 using Match quality brass and a CCI#35 primer. I will never use this combination for any game animal as the projectile will not expand. It is well capable of shooting 4" and under 5-shot groups at 1000 yards = if only the Nut behind the gun was capable.

[Holland&Holland]

1st, I think it is great that this discussion is occurring. We don't always get spirited discussions on actual gun topics here every day.

This thread started by the op asking the difference between grendal and creedmore and if they really were much better than his .308 for deer.

The answer to his 2nd question is no. The grendal discussion occurred by a post that stated that the grendal exceeded the .308. At hunting distances with hunting ammo it does not.

The discussion continued down a path where it was reported that the grendal was a capable 400 yard elk cartridge. In my opinion it is not.

Don't get me wrong, I like the grendal, used within its limitations it is a neat little cartridge, but it is not .308 class and it never will be.

[Ghost]

Interesting video

[yukonjasper]

Great discussion. I think I am hearing that 6.5 Grendel could work fine out to 200? 308 out further than that would be more reliable but mostly not a good idea to make shots out too far with either. Indian is more important than the arrow and some arrows are better than others although the Grendel and the 308 share similar balistics.

Not sure I have anything conclusive.

[acs75]

Good debate is always was fun. Don't take it personally n don't attack a person.

I hope we all can agree that taking any animal should affect your decision in what to use n when to take the shot. It's a living creature that you are taking the life of. It's Is essential to do so. Hopefully we aren't so Calais that we don't care about the animal. Take the animal cleanly, quickly, legally.

My other issue is/was that taking animals at Any distance requires the correct shooter, rifle, cartridge. But some seem to leave out the other Major factor. The elements associated with taking an animal. Something WILL change the point of impact on that shot. An anxious hunter or animal. The wind. Everything in between. Not only do I disagree with using a 6.5 grendal at "long range". I disagree with using Any cartridge at "long range". There are to many variables.
Take some consideration of what you are attempting to do. Taking a life of an animal. This shouldn't be done lightly.

[Ghost]

Here's an interesting article discussing why for the most part caliber doesn't matter in deer hunting. Based on data from a South Carolina DNR study.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/deer_calibers_dont_matter.htm

I'm not going to post it all but a couple things stood out and sounded familiar with this discussion here.

Caliber and cartridge do matter, of course, but not in the way they are often marketed. Exterior ballistics can be summed up neatly as “time of flight.” The shorter the time of flight to your target, the less time wind drift and gravity have to work on your bullet. The two ways to achieve this are increased muzzle velocity (and recoil) and aerodynamically superior bullets that are less affected by wind drift and velocity erosion.

Once you get to at least a .24 caliber bullet of reasonable sectional density (about .218), construction and sufficient impact velocity to destroy blood-bearing organs and quickly end circulation, the differences in killing power become minor on a light and fragile animal like a whitetail deer. We might like to think that at 150 yards, the maximum range at which an estimated 98% of deer are taken, there is a huge difference between a relatively low energy .30-30 and a more than double the energy .300 Magnum. However, there is actually no significant difference in killing power. Both are more than sufficient to take a whitetail deer quickly, cleanly and efficiently.

Of more importance to the hunter is a rifle's handling, fit and shooting comfort. These factors inspire confidence and contribute to good marksmanship. We all tend to practice more with guns we enjoy shooting and avoid those that bruise or jolt us. Harsh recoil and anticipation of that recoil can destroy accuracy. For these reasons, moderate recoiling rifles with good handling characteristics, crisp triggers and ergonomic controls tend to get the most game. Within reason, the cartridge used is just a footnote in most deer hunting. Place an appropriate bullet in the right place and it is venison for dinner. If you fail to accomplish that, the rest doesn't matter. Fight a clumsy gun, heavy trigger, or a rifle that beats you to death with every shot and it isn't hard to figure out how these factors can destroy confidence, enjoyment and practical accuracy. One hundred percent game recovery goes out the window at the same time.

[acs75]

Ghost do you believe you or anyone should take an animal at extended range? Really that is my question.
The reason I bring large caliber rifle is that IF You decided that you "need" to take a shot at that range. That you should give yourself the highest percentage of quick kill that you can. You are hamstring yourself by using smaller cartridge. I don't understand why you would. I Believe there is NO REASON to take a shot at those ranges. Aside from high school bragging rights
Please answer my question

[Ghost]

Ghost do you believe you or anyone should take an animal at extended range? Really that is my question.
The reason I bring large caliber rifle is that IF You decided that you "need" to take a shot at that range. That you should give yourself the highest percentage of quick kill that you can. You are hamstring yourself by using smaller cartridge. I don't understand why you would. I Believe there is NO REASON to take a shot at those ranges. Aside from high school bragging rights
Please answer my question

It's up to the shooter. I don't care what others do that's their decision.

The Grendel exceeds recommendations to 400 yards.

Larger caliber doesn't increase "percentage of quick kill"

[acs75]

lol.

When the trigger is pulled the poi for 300WM or 6.5 grendal is at the heart. The deer jumps. It takes 30 seconds for that bullet to hit its new poi. No longer in the heart. Your telling me that a grendal will have same percentage of kill then 300WM? Negative ghost rider. Don't need to post stats on that. That is obvious.

Any hunter taking deer at extended ranges is an unethical hunter. My opinion.

[Ghost]

I am seeing complete Bear Creek Arsenal 18" stainless fluted Grendel uppers for sale for $319.99. Seems like a good price.

Anything in particular I should be looking for or looking to avoid?
Thank you for your advice.

Yukon, I ran across this and it's relevant to your post

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?14537-Bear-Creek-Arsenal-Complete-Uppers

[Ghost]

lol.

When the trigger is pulled the poi for 300WM or 6.5 grendal is at the heart. The deer jumps. It takes 30 seconds for that bullet to hit its new poi. No longer in the heart. Your telling me that a grendal will have same percentage of kill then 300WM? Negative ghost rider. Don't need to post stats on that. That is obvious.

Any hunter taking deer at extended ranges is an unethical hunter. My opinion.

How far are we shooting when something travelling half mile per second travels 30 seconds?

[acs75]

lol.

When the trigger is pulled the poi for 300WM or 6.5 grendal is at the heart. The deer jumps. It takes 30 seconds for that bullet to hit its new poi. No longer in the heart. Your telling me that a grendal will have same percentage of kill then 300WM? Negative ghost rider. Don't need to post stats on that. That is obvious.

Any hunter taking deer at extended ranges is an unethical hunter. My opinion.

How far are we shooting when something travelling half mile per second travels 30 seconds?

You are bringing up the 400 plus.
Look at last column. That's time of flight. This is my dads stock Remington 300WM.





Edit
lol I don't care who you are that was funny. lol

Not 30 seconds. .030 seconds. Half a second +\-