And now for something completely different -

[FJ540]

Ha ha, made you look! I'm building an AR. Oh, come on, you know you'd ignore it if I was up front in the title.


I know there's a whole forum for the black gun, but I tend to see that place like the little know-it-all twerp who works the gun counter at the Blaine Gander mtn: all hear-say and no hands on. If I wanted the book, I'd read it myself. So, I'm posting this here because I want real answers/opinions.

I'm after a short range field rifle, not competition match sub-MOA, nothing long range. 200-300yds tops and that'd be a pot shot. Most of what I want to hit is under 100yds. The other design consideration is I want short! Not bullpup short, but I'm thinking of shooting this with collapsible stock in the short position. Quick target acquisition with minimal swept radius (both in vertical and horizontal planes) is the goal here. Where I hunt there's so much brush, my cetme scrubs 2-5 branches before I get it to my shoulder. I also want it light - not all plastic, but not sore bicep at the end of the day heavy (which is what my cetme is now).

First off - I know building is cheaper, but by how much? The complete uppers I'm seeing are almost as much as a whole gun of reputable manufacture. I like the S&W MP15MOE, but I've yet to lay hands on one. They're $900 off GB, Al's can get one for around 1100 (his cost plus 10% puts him at 1K and add tax). The magpul parts aren't that expensive to add to the mp15OR (just rails, no front sight post - only $750 on GB), and I plan to add a scope anyway, so I don't care about the plastic flip up sight. Lowers are coming down, but they're still not exactly cheap once you outfit it with a trigger and buttstock.

CMMG has their bargain bin sale going again - so I could get a shooter for $600+shipping/ffl transfer, then swap hardware off that as I felt so inclined. I'm very tempted to go this route having seen their production stuff up at Bill's today. The S&W 5 mag's free deal is the only thing really preventing it.

I don't have any issues to building a gun either. Part of me wants to, part of me wants a lifetime warranty.

I like the look and feel of full floating forearms, but I want to keep the weight down. Bushmaster's varmint gun with 20" fluted barrel (saw it today at Gmtn) was remarkably light for a heavier profile barrel with the aluminum hardware. I've heard mixed reviews of the bushy's black guns though - are they top sellers because they're good, or are they selling crap because everyone buys them on the name they made for themselves back when ar's were cheaper?

Anyone on here use a magpul forearm? I guess Streichers is a magpul dealer, but won't sell a gun to a civilian (according to aforementioned KIA kid). I'm not worried about finding one to buy, but I would like to know if I even want one to begin with. I really like the hogue pistol grip the bushy had on it, and I know there's better collapsible stocks out there, so the forearm (and that sexy black and tan color combo) is really the only thing the MOE has over the optics ready (OR).

I'm ex-army, so I know what an M16 shoots like. I even had a Colt Accurized w/24" stainless bull barrel for a number of years, but the colt had more slop between the upper and lower than I care for. Never had a problem with it, just didn't like the slop in the pins.

I'm not very current on weaponry or available deals, so any assistance in where to look for good prices on good parts would be great. Also, pointing me to a FFL who'd take delivery of an out of state purchase for less than 50 would also be appreciated. I can save sales tax by getting a gun out of state, but is there an additional FET charge on the listings from gunbroker? It's been 4 or 5 years since I even bought a gun. I'll have my permit to purchase by wed, or friday (depends when they send it out).

I'm also in no real hurry. I want to keep it under a K, but I'm not super concerned with that for the right gun.

What would you guys do?

[hammAR]

First, it is difficult to address your novella without writing another one.......there will be plenty along in a while, and I will only address a couple of points......

I don't have any issues to building a gun either. Part of me wants to, part of me wants a lifetime warranty.

You will have a lifetime warranty if you build it. All weapons will eventually have something go wrong or break. However, if you blild it you can easily repair and replace any part yourself and do not have to take it or ship it someplace....be independent!

CMMG has their bargain bin sale going again - so I could get a shooter for $600+shipping/ffl transfer, then swap hardware off that as I felt so inclined. I'm very tempted to go this route having seen their production stuff up at Bill's today. The S&W 5 mag's free deal is the only thing really preventing it.

This deal on the S&W is a great deal, I just ordered one because I can not build one for that price (This should take care of several of your questions at once.) Any number of local FFL's (Frontiersman, Burnsville, Bullseye, Discount gun dealer, etc)....will handle the paper work for around $25.

I'm after a short range field rifle, not competition match sub-MOA, nothing long range. 200-300yds tops and that'd be a pot shot. Most of what I want to hit is under 100yds. The other design consideration is I want short! Not bullpup short, but I'm thinking of shooting this with collapsible stock in the short position. Quick target acquisition with minimal swept radius (both in vertical and horizontal planes) is the goal here. Where I hunt there's so much brush, my cetme scrubs 2-5 branches before I get it to my shoulder. I also want it light - not all plastic, but not sore bicep at the end of the day heavy (which is what my cetme is now).

Short range, quick, short radius, and light......all tell me to tell you to forget the glass, put on a red dot or learn to shoot with iron sights.

Finally, you can always change out, bling out, or tacticool out an AR once you get it running and use it for a while,
besides it sounds like you will be constantly adding and changing crap out or annually exchanging components with Strad anyhow,
so get one or build one, any one, and get it running........

good luck, have fun, and be safe....

[FJ540]

I'm not into the fo-tactical crap outfitting. I'd only consider a flashlight mount for hunting coons, since using light on anything else is pretty much illegal. We don't have too many coons up at the land I hunt, or at my own family's cabin. The MOE front grip has a better looking profile than the stock milspec's. I like the feel of the round ones too, but the thermal draw out of my hand is a primary concern, as is weight.

As for lifetime warranty: I'm talking about having someone else pay to replace my shot-out barrel.

I've never appreciated red-dot's. I'm also ex-army, and missed expert by 1 round when qualifying in 28F downpour. Ever try shooting iron sights when the aperture is full of water? I broke cheek to stock every round I wasn't wiping the splashed water out of my eye. Not to mention my hands were freezing as my second pair of glove liners was soaked before we went prone.

Having said that, I can draw down pretty quick with a 4x scope. I'll probably take the nikon off my cetme and put it on the AR for this gun. That's 3-9x variable.

[hammAR]

I'm also ex-army

...really.......

thanks for your service.....

[FJ540]

I just did what every American should, and I'm better for it. No need to thank me.

If we'd just mandate military service like all the countries they claim have better healthcare than we do - we wouldn't have the public school under achievement, excess social services, or need to spend the money for recruiting we currently do. It'd probably get us a lot closer to a balanced budget than any of the crap the dems have come up with (well, that's not saying anything).

Think about it, if every kid graduating HS knew they were either going to be a bullet catcher or a specialist, depending solely on their grades; do you think they'd slack off in math and English? Hell no.

[Norsesmithy]

I've "put together" two. Now mine may not count in the eye of some, because mine came with assembled uppers, but they can go pound sand.

My first was a Del Ton 20 inch. It has been a very reliable and accurate weapon. I've shot several 5 round strings with UMC ammo just under an inch at 100 yards, from sling support sitting.

In a sled, on a bench rest, this gun will put Q3131a in 3/4 inch groups all day.

I didn't pay for the Chrome lining. It makes it a little more accurate, but also a little more maintenance intensive.

I built it on a Fulton Arms lower I bought from Brownells because I liked the clean roll mark.

Del Ton had serious back log after the election and into the summer. I'd probably call ahead before ordering.

My second was built on a CMMG lower. I bought a LPK, buffer tube, spring, and buffer from AIM surplus, and a MOE handguard, CTR buttstock, DD A1.5 rear sight, and completed DD barreled upper from PK Firearms. I am super pleased with this gun. It doesn't quite shoot cloverleafs like the Del Ton, but it has already shot under 2 MOA, and once deer season is over, I'm gonna try to squeeze more out of it. More importantly, it is a ton lighter and much handier.

My experience with those four companies was exemplary. Other great companies are out there. You don't need any tools more involved than a screwdriver set and vice grips to assemble a lower, a few more things are needed to assemble an upper

[FJ540]

Tools aren't an issue...



There's a cnc turning center and horizontal mill that missed the frame.

[Norsesmithy]

So are you looking to fab or assemble?

[FJ540]

I thought about smithing the barrel and such, but I'm thinking I'll do that on a custom gun down the road.

There's just nothing special or sexy about an AR (I like them, but they're not god's gift), so I don't see the need to go balls out and manufacture something which can be purchased reasonably. This really is intended for getting dirty and taking game. I'd rather not have it be my crown jewel of machining talent. I don't even want to finish a lower since the time spent doesn't save me anything measured at shop rate.

[Norsesmithy]

The PK firearms DD barreled uppers are probably the best quality upper for the price, anywhere, but if you want to go a step up, Bravo Company USA is having a sale on their uppers. If you don't want a high buck tac rail, they come without handguards.

You'd need a rear sight (or an optic) and you'd need to either pick the option for a charging handle and bolt carrier group, or buy em separate. I'd almost be tempted to buy em separate, just to avoid paying for a regular charging handle, so you can just get the BCM/VTLOR Gunfighter charging handle, its a much sturdier design.

Spikes Tactical is having a sale on lowers, gets you a very good lower for 90$ plus shipping plus FFL transfer.

An LPK is an LPK unless you want a match trigger. I always felt the basic AR-15 trigger was pretty decent, especially if you want to give it a bit of a polish, so that is a totally optional deal.

But if you just want a reliable beater gun, I'd look at a Del Ton kit or a CMMG Bargin Bin rifle, and spend the rest of your budget on BUIS, mags, and ammo (and maybe an optic).

Dunno about pricing things from more than one source, but it looks like you can buy all the parts to build a BCM upper from Bravo Company for less than the upper, so if you want to do all of the little things (like pinning the FSB, the gas tube, and riviting the front swivel, etc) you could save like 10 bucks overall.

[FJ540]

That's kind of where I'm coming from with this whole thread. The S&W MP15OR is within $50 of the CMMG bargain bin rifles once you consider the free mags they're giving away right now. I only have one 30rd mag left from when I had my colt, so that's money well saved rather than a little perk on the deal. Building a kit lands you at that same $600 mark (albeit with the ability to choose your lower and components).

Considering I just want to hit 6" (likely moving) targets, the added accuracy of going above and beyond your basic "shooter" is going to be lost on the application. I'm not using this for home defense unless civil war breaks out or we're invaded. It's strictly going to be a purpose built tool for the job. I liken it to a framing hammer. I can buy a craftsman, or estwing for a little more.

How do you like the MOE forearm?

[Norsesmithy]

For 30 bucks, I'm gonna put a MOE on every carbine gas length I ever own. It just fits my hand better than the standard handguard, and I think the easy attachment of accessory rails is a nice feature (even if I haven't yet, eventually, it'll get a VFG and a light).

And while PMAGs are nice, the C-products aluminums with Magpul Followers fair almost as well in torture tests, and are only like 8 bucks.

Also, if you are getting a Telestock, get a friction locking buttstock like the CTR, ACS, or VTLOR Clubfoot. It is so much better feeling than the standard issue M4 set. Above and beyond any benefit to consistency it may offer, the sensation is improved enough to justify the price.

[FJ540]

I think I am going to assemble a gun after all.

What's a good 2 stage trigger? And who makes good internals for the lower? I used to hear bad things about DPMS, but that was 10 years ago.

[Pat]

I think I am going to assemble a gun after all.

What's a good 2 stage trigger?

Chip McCormick makes a great two stage drop in trigger group. Or at least he used to. Have just read a post on the firingline saying he is out of the trigger biz. Still lots of them for sale, though.

[FJ540]

Well, there's no turning back. I just got a Blackhole 16" stainless barrel lined up.