Post 435 CMP Service Rifle Clinic Review

[Scott Notaeh]

Went to the Service Rifle Clinic today. Had a ton of fun and learned lots. I would reccomend this to anyone who would like to improve their rifle shooting. Earlier, I went to an Appleseed so since that is all I know, I will compare this to that. My appleseed report is here:

http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=20731&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60#p237085

I think there were around 18 shooters. All shot some type of AR except 2 of them. Almost all ARs were 20" stainless heavy barrel versions. I think I was the only one with a 16" barrel.

The Post 435 gun club is beautiful and was very comfortable. The trainers were great. I would say they were of better quality than the trainers I had at Appleseed. We spent around 2 hours being shown good form for each of the positions and getting shooting tips. It basically crammed the first full day of appleseed into 2 hours. I was very glad that I had gone to appleseed first because this is a ton of information to remember that you get very quickly in this clinic. It worked as a perfect review today and I was also able to pick up some new things so it was very worthwhile. If this was my first exposure to this type of shooting, I would not have been able to absorb much. We went over all 3-4 positions all in one session. In appleseed we were shown one of the postions and then we practiced it and got tips before going on to the next. Appleseed allowed more to sink in.

Most of the day comprised of the CMP approved match. I was very glad that I had gotten my rifle mostly sighted in and knew how to adjust my rifle. The match shooting is almost exactly the same as the appleseed AQT. Of course we were shooting at 200 yards rather than 82 feet but it really felt the same. The sight picture is the same due to the reduced size targets used in appleseed. I really thought that it would be a bit tougher shooting at a little more distance but it was not. I got some more very good shooting tips from the instructors while shooting and I learned some new things. I was happy with my shooting and I scored a 429/500. I am sure this sucks but considering that I only had around 40 rounds through my AR before today, I am happy.

Unfortunately, this could very well be the end of my high power journey. I was told that I would not be allowed to shoot my rifle in any normal service rifle high power competitions. Note that appleseed encourages people to bring whatever rifle they have. I was fine today since this was a clinic. Even though my M4 copy is exactly the same as current issue service rifles except the barrel is too long, they said it is to short to be allowed. I think it is silly that the M4 is not considered a service rifle and that something that would clearly be a handicap to me is not allowed. Anyway, they were very nice about it and I got multiple offers to use other people's or club's rifles.

Problem is - This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. I don't want to shoot a heavy long rifle. I want to learn to shoot my rifle.

Anyway, this was a fantastic clinic and I would highly recommend it. It was well organized and very well done. I am very happy I went. If you have not done it, go to the next one. I would also recommend attending an appleseed first although don't use that as an excuse not to go.

[gyrfalcon]

Unfortunately, this could very well be the end of my high power journey. I was told that I would not be allowed to shoot my rifle in any normal service rifle high power competitions. Note that appleseed encourages people to bring whatever rifle they have. I was fine today since this was a clinic. Even though my M4 copy is exactly the same as current issue service rifles except the barrel is too long, they said it is to short to be allowed. I think it is silly that the M4 is not considered a service rifle and that something that would clearly be a handicap to me is not allowed. Anyway, they were very nice about it and I got multiple offers to use other people's or club's rifles...

You should be able to use an M4 but it will put you at a disadvantage to the other competitors.

6.2.3 U.S. Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm, M16

The rifle must be an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle issued by the U.S. Armed Forces or
a commercial rifle of the same type and caliber. M16 rifles must be chambered
for the 5.56mm cartridge and comply with the following specific requirements:

(1) Modification to make automatic fire impossible without removing, replacing
or altering parts is allowed.
(2) Metal or synthetic (polymer) magazines with standard service 20 or
30-round box magazine dimensions must be attached during the firing
of all courses and in all positions. A 10-round magazine with the same
external dimensions as a standard service 20-round box magazine may
be used. A dummy magazine with a ramp for single shot loading may be
used if this magazine has the same external dimensions as the standard
service 20-round box magazine. Standard service 20-round magazines
are straight, without curves. Standard service 30-round magazines are
curved.
(3) The front sight post may be fixed or lockable.
(4) To stabilize the rear sight assembly, it may be fitted with one or more pins
extending down into the receiver or with stabilizing projections extending
forward no more than 5/16” into the top groove of the carrying handle.
(5) The flash suppressor and bayonet lug may be removed or the rifle may be
manufactured without a flash suppressor or bayonet lug. A vented barrel
extension may be attached. Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches, as
measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel.
(6) A screw may be inserted in the back radius of the pistol grip where it joins
the lower receiver. This screw may extend into the rear lock-down lug of
the upper receiver for the purpose of securing the upper and lower receivers.
The screw head may not protrude above the original surface of the
receiver. Both ends of the original takedown pin must remain in place so
that the original outside configuration is not changed.
(7) Upper receivers may not be changed during the fi ring of any match.
(8) An external device may be attached to prevent selector lever movement
to the auto position.
(9) The front sling swivel may be attached to the front ferrule of the hand
guard or front tip of the “tube” (in the case of a floating barrel system) as
long as it remains in the 6 o’clock position and is no more than ½ inch from
the original sling swivel location.
(10) The M16A1 rifl e (short) butt stock or pistol grip or the commercial equivalents.
A fi xed-length aftermarket stock that reduces the length of pull to
no less than 10 inches may also be installed on an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle
or a commercial equivalent rifl e. Any aftermarket stock must have the
same external characteristics as the A2 or A1 stocks except for the shorter
length. Collapsible stocks of the type used on M16 M4/M4A1 Carbines
are not permitted. The same butt-stock must be used for all stages of a
competition.
(11) If an M16 A4 or a commercial equivalent rifl e with a removable carry
handle is used, the rifle must be equipped with a carry handle and rear
sight that has the same configuration as the carry handle on the M16 A2
(height, type of sight, etc.). No optical sights are permitted. The carry
handle must be attached to the rifle in such a way that the sight radius
remains the same as the M16A2 rifle. A higher front sight base (.060”) or
lower rear sight base/ carry handle (.060”) may be used to allow proper
zeroing of the rifl e from 100 to 1,000 yards.
(12) A standard hand guard or tube without an accessory rail must be used.
The sling swivel can attach to the front ferrule of the hand guard or the
front tip of the tube in accordance with Rule 6.2.3 (10).
(13) A DVC-T-30 or commercial equivalent case deflector may be attached.
(14) The M16A4 quad rail or commercial equivalent hand-guard may be used.
The quad rail must be 12” in length and have four rails at the 12, 3, 6 and
9 o’clock positions running the entire length of the hand-guard. The diameter
of the rail must be at least 2” and not more than 2.5”. The front sling
swivel must be attached to the front end of the hand-guard. The standard
A-frame front sight must be fixed in the as-issued position on the barrel.
Plastic covers may be used on the mounting rails on the hand-guard.
(15) California residents only may use rifles where a Bullet Button AR-15 Magazine
Lock or similar device that is legal according to California laws has
replaced the conventional magazine catch.

[crbutler]

Actually, if you read that post completely, he can't compete in Service rifle.

An M4 Carbine is not a M16 A2 or A4. Barrel length is not the issue here.

If they are willing to score it separately, he can compete in a match as a Modern Military rifle, but not as a Service rifle.

[gyrfalcon]

An M4 Carbine is not a M16 A2 or A4. Barrel length is not the issue here.

Of course the M4 is not an A2/A4... If he puts a non-collapsible A2/A4 stock on his "M4" he should be able to compete in service rifle matches. If you know other wise please explain.

It's not like he's using a true M4 either.

[Erud]

Your rifle does not meet the criteria of a Service Rifle, so it could not compete in "Service Rifle" category. You could compete in NRA matches in the "Match Rifle" category. CMP Leg matches you would most likely be allowed to(depending on who's running the match) shoot it just fine, you just would not be eligible for awards. At club level matches no one cares what you shoot at all, as long as it is safe. Honestly, there would not much danger of you winning matches with an M4 so who cares? Shoot what you want to shoot. At the match in Red Wing last Sunday I shot next to a guy shooting an M4 and 55 grain bullets. Did he do well? No, but he could hit the target for the most part and was able to get an idea of what the sport is all about. Even if you are a top-notch shooter and your rifle is capable of great accuracy, the M4 will not be able to keep up when you get to the 600 yard line - it was never meant to. HP matches are not combat type shooting and the rifles are fairly specialized for this type of thing. If you want to be competitive in it you would probably eventually want to get a match-grade rifle in an A2 configuration. If you just want to have fun(nothing wrong with that at all) just show up and shoot what you have.

[Erud]

Another thing worth noting, in NRA matches, it really makes no practical difference whether you shoot a "Match Rifle" or a "Service Rifle". The scores are not divided by type of rifle as there just aren't enough shooters at local matches to warrant 2 classes. Exceptions would be matches like the MN Service Rifle Championship or that sort of thing.

The point I am trying to make is that if you want to shoot a Highpower match, don't worry too much about what category your rifle will fall into, just show up and try it out. If it doesn't work out and you want to try something different, there are plenty of people that will loan you a rifle for the day if you give notice you need one - myself included. As noted by someone else above, the state association(MRRA) also has rifles they will loan out also and so do some of the local gun clubs. Almost to a man, HP shooters will go out of their way to help out new shooters...

[Rip Van Winkle]

Scott,

Thank you for the positive review. Putting on a clinic is a lot of work, and the positive comments I receive make all the hard work pay off.

As for your rifle, just because it is not Service Rifle legal is no excuse to not come out and shoot.You and your rifle are always welcome to shoot our Tuesday night NRA League. And If you wanted to go to a match at another club, contact the match director (before the match) and I bet he will do his best to make sure you would have a suitable rifle to shoot.

I should have pictures and results posted in the next couple days.

Mark Havlik
Post 435 CMP President

[gyrfalcon]

As for your rifle, just because it is not Service Rifle legal is no excuse to not come out and shoot...

If you put a new stock on an M4 would that make it Service Rifle Legal?

[Scott Notaeh]

Scott,

Thank you for the positive review. Putting on a clinic is a lot of work, and the positive comments I receive make all the hard work pay off.

As for your rifle, just because it is not Service Rifle legal is no excuse to not come out and shoot.You and your rifle are always welcome to shoot our Tuesday night NRA League. And If you wanted to go to a match at another club, contact the match director (before the match) and I bet he will do his best to make sure you would have a suitable rifle to shoot.

I should have pictures and results posted in the next couple days.

Mark Havlik
Post 435 CMP President

Mark,

It was tons of fun, well organized, nice facilities, and you planned the weather perfectly. I learned lots and it was a great value. Surprised these things don't fill up on they day you publish the info.

Scott

[TC95GT]

I was at the clinic also so I will add my .02 for what it's worth.

The clinic was excellent. Mark and the crew did a great job. For $25.00 plus the cost of ammo it's hard to beat the value. Not only did I get a good overview of service rifle competition, but I got some excellent instruction AND I was given a rifle, sling and shooting glove to use for the day. It was also a lot fun. Another great thing about the clinic was that we not only got to shoot but we scored other shooters and worked the pits. The entire day required us to be totally engaged in the competition. The day really did fly by.

As someone who has been through a couple of Appleseeds it was a fantastic opportunity to be able to to take some of those fundamental skills and start applying them at longer distances, even though 200 yards is really not considered long distance.

I would absolutely recommend this clinic to anyone regardless of skill level.
Thanks again to Mark and all the others that were there who volunteered to help out.

[Rip Van Winkle]

As for your rifle, just because it is not Service Rifle legal is no excuse to not come out and shoot...

If you put a new stock on an M4 would that make it Service Rifle Legal?

The way I interpret rule 6.2.3, no. The CMP doesn't seem to concerned over barrel length as long as it's under 20". I think where they would disqualify you is subsection 12 "A standard hand guard or tube without an accessory rail must be used." "standard" being an A2 or A4 length.

[Rip Van Winkle]

For those interested. I've posted downloadable Results Bulletin and Pictures.

Results (pdf)

Pictures

Slideshow

[Scott Notaeh]

For those interested. I've posted downloadable Results Bulletin and Pictures.

Results (pdf)

Pictures

Slideshow

Nice. One note on the pdf results. The score headings are switched around. The score listed for standing was actually for slow fire prone.

[farmerj]

he's got some purdy wood here....

[Rip Van Winkle]

Nice. One note on the pdf results. The score headings are switched around. The score listed for standing was actually for slow fire prone.

Dang, how did I miss that.

There it's fixed.

http://www.post435gunclub.org/downloads/cmp11/clinic_6-4-11.pdf