Long chamber AR

[rsilvers]

If you are ok with an AR10 class platform, then 308 (or possibly 0.260).

If you want an AR15 size platform, then 6.5 Grendel.

[Erud]

In my opinion, the Blackout is really only worthwhile if you can suppress it. Otherwise, it's just a slow and weak .30 caliber.

Just because it suppresses well does not mean it is any less useful unsuppressed than anything else. It is more powerful than 5.56mm. From a 9 inch barrel, 300 BLK matches an M4 for muzzle energy.

At 300 meters, Remington 125 grain Match 300 BLK ammo is 16.7% more energy than even the hot Lapua 7.62x39mm ammo which is $62 per box at Midway.

300 BLK is simply the most powerful 30 cal cartridge that can be shot from an AR15 using normal magazines with full 30 round capacity.

It has caught on, and over 75 companies have announced products for it and that seems to be growing weekly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRw-ypBgrKo

And the ammo is way cheaper than 6.5 or 6.8, and only 10-25 cents a case if you reload (depending on who you get it from) - 1/5 to 1/2 the price of 6.8 brass.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/547535 ... -box-of-20

I'm glad you like it, but saying it has more energy than the 7.62x39 is kind of like saying your '86 ford escort can beat a '81 chevette in a drag race. The 7.62x39 is not exactly the benchmark for .30 caliber performance. That 125 grain bullet drops like a rock and ballistically it is a turd.

I'm all for buying whatever the heck kind of gun you want for any reason you choose, but it is what it is. If we could own suppressors in MN, I'd build one with a short barrel to shoot subsonic loads in a heartbeat. Until then, there are a lot more useful cartridges available, IMHO....

[rsilvers]

You said:

In my opinion, the Blackout is really only worthwhile if you can suppress it. Otherwise, it's just a slow and weak .30 caliber.

Then I gave an example of a cartridge that is very popular, 7.62x39mm, which is basically never suppressed - to prove that your point made no sense. Then you avoid my point, and instead say "Well, 7.6x39mm is not the benchmark of 30 caliber performance."

Please address my point - why is 300 BLK only useful with a suppressor but 7.62x39mm is useful without a suppressor?

[Erud]

You said:

In my opinion, the Blackout is really only worthwhile if you can suppress it. Otherwise, it's just a slow and weak .30 caliber.

Then I gave an example of a cartridge that is very popular, 7.62x39mm, which is basically never suppressed - to prove that your point made no sense. Then you avoid my point, and instead say "Well, 7.6x39mm is not the benchmark of 30 caliber performance."

Please address my point - why is 300 BLK only useful with a suppressor but 7.62x39mm is useful without a suppressor?

I can see you are very fond of this cartridge, so more power to you. If I'm not mistaken weren't you also involved in the development of it?

Anyways, The 7.62x39 is definitely a popular chambering, it's just not a very impressive one, ballistically-speaking. I have never been impressed by the 7.62x39, so I don't own or shoot any. The .380 ACP is also very popular, so is the 30-30 Win. See what I'm saying? If you re-read my post(which you quoted in your own post), I never said that your cartridge isn't "useful", only that it wasn't "worthwhile" unless you can suppress it, which we can't her in MN. Any cartridge can be useful to some extent, some much more so than others. I don't see any .30 caliber cartridge that is really viable in a standard AR15 sized frame, so yours being the "best" of them would not be enough to get me to want one. There just isn't enough powder capacity in a .223-sized case. If you only want to shoot inside 300 yards or so, I guess knock yourself out. I can shoot pretty darn well to 600 + yards with a 77gr SMK in a 20" .223.

The OP mentioned .308 and it's not as if AR10-sized rifles are really expensive or hard to come by, so why not just shoot a .308? Hard-hitting, decent ballistics, 1000yd + capable, reasonably cheap and abundant ammo and component choices, etc. Or, the Grendel if for some reason it must be kept within an AR15-sized package.

So what can the .300 BLK do better?

Shoot sub-sonic loads with a suppressor?

[rsilvers]

The OP mentioned .308 and it's not as if AR10-sized rifles are really expensive or hard to come by, so why not just shoot a .308? Hard-hitting, decent ballistics, 1000yd + capable, reasonably cheap and abundant ammo and component choices, etc. Or, the Grendel if for some reason it must be kept within an AR15-sized package.

So what can the .300 BLK do better?

Shoot sub-sonic loads with a suppressor?

I am the project leader of 300 BLK. Suppressors are not the main reason why 300 BLK is good. What 300 BLK does better than 308 is that you can get 30 rounds of it in an AR15. 308 takes a much heavier AR10 platform.

But the OP should go with a 308 in an AR10, as 300 BLK is more of a 460 meter and less cartridge (I have shot it at 600 yards with good results, but one would not pick it for that purpose).

[rukwikenuf]

Guys maybe I should add I'm looking to something tht can reach out and touch in the +500yd range. So talk of a 9 inch barrel make me wonder why I just would not use my 45 1911 and be done with it. So with teh rnage requirement what are the thoughts on calibers?

if you're looking for a 500 yard range or "reach out and touch", why change anything? run a 5.56 NATO, trust me, it'll reach out a touch someone at 500! in the Corps (prior to ACOG scopes and M4 Carbines ) we had to qualify with the M16. 20" chrome lined bbl, iron sights, and most of us used a sling for tension on the NON free-floated barrel! i had to take 10 shots at 500 yards, and believe me, if you know what you're doing, you'll be set!

BTW, that M16 was a cheap rifle. if you were to do a heavy bull bbl, NOT chrome lined, a good scope, i would be AMAZED if you didn't see a 10" grouping at 500. and that's with off the shelf cheap components of the DPMS variety

[farmerj]

Guys maybe I should add I'm looking to something tht can reach out and touch in the +500yd range. So talk of a 9 inch barrel make me wonder why I just would not use my 45 1911 and be done with it. So with teh rnage requirement what are the thoughts on calibers?

if you're looking for a 500 yard range or "reach out and touch", why change anything? run a 5.56 NATO, trust me, it'll reach out a touch someone at 500! in the Corps (prior to ACOG scopes and M4 Carbines ) we had to qualify with the M16. 20" chrome lined bbl, iron sights, and most of us used a sling for tension on the NON free-floated barrel! i had to take 10 shots at 500 yards, and believe me, if you know what you're doing, you'll be set!

BTW, that M16 was a cheap rifle. if you were to do a heavy bull bbl, NOT chrome lined, a good scope, i would be AMAZED if you didn't see a 10" grouping at 500. and that's with off the shelf cheap components of the DPMS variety

even the M4's will go out a lot further than 500 with irons or the acog. BTDTGTFTS.

[Rip Van Winkle]

BTW, that M16 was a cheap rifle. if you were to do a heavy bull bbl, NOT chrome lined, a good scope, i would be AMAZED if you didn't see a 10" grouping at 500. and that's with off the shelf cheap components of the DPMS variety

Properly set up and with the right bullets, an AR15 can hold 10" at 1000 yards

[WolfTrack]

Guys maybe I should add I'm looking to something tht can reach out and touch in the +500yd range. So talk of a 9 inch barrel make me wonder why I just would not use my 45 1911 and be done with it. So with teh rnage requirement what are the thoughts on calibers?

A 6.5 Creedmoor, or a .260 would get you there comfortably.

In a standard 5.56 sized AR: the Grendel fits the bill. With recent events surrounding it, more options are supposedly in the works to include Wolf manufacturered ammo, for cheaper plinking.




From just over 2 months ago:

David Fortier reports:

Well, today Alexander Arms announced a few things at the Big 3 writers event.

1. The Grendel has been accepted by SAAMI 2. They have released their trademark on the Grendel 3. They showed off steel cased Grendel produced by Wolf 4. They hired a very well respected gentlemannamed Wayne Holt to handle PR.

So, now ANYONE can make a Grendel. The steel cased ammo is being produced by Barnaul for Wolf Performance ARMS and Ammunition. Note Wolf now has a firearms division and is working with Izhmash and Molot. Theyare looking into Vepr and Saiga rifles in Grendel. Currently testing is being done on the Wolf steel cases to verify they are good to go. Wolf is claiming production ammo for 1st quarter of this coming year. They said now that they switched this from Tula to cddBarnaul things are progressing nicely. I think its very positive as Barnaul's quality is well known for being a notch above Tulas. The steel cases look sexy....

Wayne Holt was the #2 man at Hornady for many years and was with Glock prior to this. This is big move on Alexander Arms part. Should be very interesting to see how things go.

Wolf was at the event and they are very firmly behind the Grendel, and have some very interesting things regarding AK rifles.

I'm tired, will try to get some pics up in a couple days. Day two of the event is tomorrow....... The Military Arms Channel folks are out here, great guys. Had a really good time speaking with them and seeing how they do stuff. Lot of interesting products and Hi-Lux showed a prototype of a new CMR type scope....many interesting things here.......even had one of the early developers of the 6.8 SPC!

[Norsesmithy]

I've also seen pics of Wolf Gold (likely PRIVI) 6.5x39 floating around, for those of you who abhor steel cased ammo.

Grendel is going to happen in a big way now that Alexander Arms is no longer strangling it, IMO.