Is any AR a good AR or should I stay away from certain ones?

[brauchma]

I started my quest to acquire an AR at the wrong time. I have been able to afford one for years and never pulled the trigger on getting one. I know this question can really start a opinionated reply fest...I want to get those opinions. I passed on a bushmaster for no real good reason other than I want a AR with the fore grip accessory rails. Maybe I could have replaced it?

Educate me or tips on good resources. =)

[340PD]

I agree in that you will get as many opinions as replies. I personally have a DPMS M4'gery (M4 Style). I don't really have an opinion as to good or bad as I think they are very similar. I'm sure some will disagree with that. I would simply mention that you can certainly customize most any AR that you do get to have what you want on it. If you find one you really want but it doesn't have a particular feature you want, six position stock, accessory rails on the fore grip, different fore grip, vertical grip, different sights, different pistol grip, bipod, optics, etc, you can always add/change these things later. Some are easier to change out than others but all can be changed for a different option.

[rugersol]

There's some components manufacturers folks tend to avoid... r-guns... nfa... ati...

Otherwise, I don't know that it's so much as good makes vs bad makes, as it is, what ya get fer yer money?!

Colts, BCM, and Noveske seem to run higher!... ya can argue how much of that is fer the name, vs something worthwhile!

But, if ya pay $700 fer a Bushmaster, S&W, DPMS, Del-ton, er PSA, I don't think too many folks'll say ya got ripped off... er even a bad gun?! Some'll suggest ya can't back up yer local SWAT team, with it!

AR's are like barbies, fer men... if there's purdy much anything bout a particular gun ya don't like, it's expected, that ya jest go ahead n change it!... in many cases, with little more than a YouTube video, ya can do it yerself!

[photogpat]

Stay away from homebuilt specials unless you know what you're looking at. While assembling a lower isn't all that tough, staking a bolt carrier group (BCG), torqueing a barrel, and/or installing the gas system can be beyond the abilities of most home gunsmiths to do well resulting in poor performance, stoppages, jams, cracking, etc...

If they have a home built lower and a factory built upper - thats generally ok...but still look at the components for fit and function.

[Hmac]

AR quality can be a contentious issue because like computers, cars, cameras, power tools, snowmobiles, quads....people tend to be pretty emotionally invested in their choices. The quality of the brand you choose depends a lot on what you want to use it for. If it's just a weekend plinker, a few hundred rounds per year, that isn't going to be run hard, a Bushmaster/DPMS/RRA may be just fine. If reliability is important to you such as a critical use firearm that might see 2000 rounds in one weekend and thousands of rounds per year, then you'd be better off spending the extra money on a higher quality AR such as Colt/Noveske/Bravo Company/Daniel Defense. I see it in terms of, for example, power tools. A Chinese-import cordless drill from Harbor Freight may work just fine for light-use for the occasional home-handyman project. You won't find many contractors with such tools, however. And then there are some home handymen who prefer to have quality tools and buy Milwaukee or DeWalt too. Personally, I'm not a contractor or mechanic, but I buy Milwaukee power tools and hand tools from SnapOn. But your orientation may be different. Cost vs quality can be a very personal equation. Many people are satisfied with "good enough".

It might be helpful to search for opinions from trainers around the country that see all brands and models of ARs coming through their high round-count course. Those guys tend to have pretty strong opinions about various brands based on the failures they see in the rifles brought to their courses.

Pat MacNamara
Jeff Gonzales
Louis Awerbuck
Kyle DeFoor
Larry Vickers
Kyle Lamb
Greg Sullivan

just to name a few.

[rugersol]

Stay away from homebuilt specials unless you know what you're looking at. While assembling a lower isn't all that tough, staking a bolt carrier group (BCG), torqueing a barrel, and/or installing the gas system can be beyond the abilities of most home gunsmiths to do well resulting in poor performance, stoppages, jams, cracking, etc...

If they have a home built lower and a factory built upper - thats generally ok...but still look at the components for fit and function.

I'll go ahead n disagree!

There's no "fitting" of any parts/components on an AR!.... wholly unlike a 1911!

Regardless, as I said, yer expected to change stuff... jest cause someone's sellin a "factory" rifle, don't mean they didn't change somethin!

Bout the only thing anyone could be concerned about is torqing the bbl nut... and if yer that worked up bout it, jest pick up a toque wench, and redo it!

Most guys buy complete BCG's ... as I said, if it's r-guns, maybe don't pay an excessive amount fer it?!

If it's got a bunch of no-name components, don't pay a lot fer it! If it's got nice brand name components, worst case, ya disassemble the whole gun, and put it back together!

... good way to pick up a bunch of nice components, at a discount!

[photogpat]

I was assuming we were talking to someone with limited gunsmith-type experience who was asking tips for picking up an AR and what to look for.

I stand by my statement - I've seen uppers and lowers that fit together so tightly that pulling the takedown pin and charging handle was almost a Herculean effort, and a punch was required to put them back together. I've also seen some fit so sloppily that the takedown pins and trigger group pin walked out on their own under simply charging and dry firing. Bolts that don't seal well into the carrier since someone forgot the gas rings is another common error on home-builds. Fit and function was my comment and I stand by it.

You and I, as well as others on here, may be comfortable torqueing barrel nuts and staking screws/nuts,but you have to understand there are people who have no idea what that is....hence my comment about factory built uppers. You're absolutely correct to call out that there are even factory built uppers that are poorly constructed. I'll only point out that I was speaking in generalities, and not specifics.

[rugersol]

Ya... I guess I'm not understanding!

I recently sold a home-build... as did Blark... I have little doubt both buyers are not only happy with their purchases, they got purdy good deals!... well, at least mine did!

... no gunsmithing er nothin else, req'd!

As I said, most guys buy BCG's complete!... no installing gas rings, er staking keys! As I said, aside from torqing a bbl nut, more er less the same as what ya'd get if ya bought a factory rifle, and disassembled it... only, no disassembly req'd!

... and, in today's market, probly not a horrible way to go!

Moreover, ya got that gun shop... I forget the name... they'll let ya pick out all yer components, and what ya ain't got the seeds to assemble yerself, they'll gladly do for ya!... worst case, bring it to them, and have them disassemble it, check it all out, and reassemble it!

I'm by no means recommending buyin a home build... er any used rifle! But, if it's a good deal, ya trust the seller, and don't mind buyin used, I jest don't see a reason to be overly concerned?!

[photogpat]

Ya... I guess I'm not understanding!

I recently sold a home-build... as did Blark... I have little doubt both buyers are not only happy with their purchases, they got purdy good deals!... well, at least mine did!

... no gunsmithing er nothin else, req'd!

As I said, most guys buy BCG's complete!... no installing gas rings, er staking keys! As I said, aside from torqing a bbl nut, more er less the same as what ya'd get if ya bought a factory rifle, and disassembled it... only, no disassembly req'd!

... and, in today's market, probly not a horrible way to go!

Moreover, ya got that gun shop... I forget the name... they'll let ya pick out all yer components, and what ya ain't got the seeds to assemble yerself, they'll gladly do for ya!... worst case, bring it to them, and have them disassemble it, check it all out, and reassemble it!

I'm by no means recommending buyin a home build... er any used rifle! But, if it's a good deal, ya trust the seller, and don't mind buyin used, I jest don't see a reason to be overly concerned?!

I think we're on the same page. You and Blarky know what you're doing, and you're right, most guys buy factory assembled BCGs. It's good advice you gave above that if the find a good deal on a "homebuilt" to bring it to Atomic Tactical for a checkup and fix if necessary.

I was replying to someone (the OP) who I was assuming doesn't know what they're looking at, nor even how to check - and with the rash of people buying any spare part they can find, then assembling it into something they can put onto Armslist for a quick buck...I get the impression (possibly mistakenly) that there's going to end up being a lot of "mutt" ARs on the market for the next few months/years. You know, and I know, and Blarky knows, and a lot of others know how to check them out...but maybe not the OP.

[rugersol]

- and with the rash of people buying any spare part they can find, then assembling it into something they can put onto Armslist for a quick buck..

hmmm... good point!.... I had not considered that!... never been, myself!

[Scratch]

I'm going to lean on Rugersols side of the fence here.

ARs are not much more complicated than Legos.

Assuming buy a complete BCG, you only need, what.... 3 specialty tools to build one?

1. An upper vise
2. A torque wrench
3. An armorers wrench

Oh yeah... And the most important tool you need, that everybody looking at this already has...
YouTube.

Yes you need some punches, a bech vise, hammers and stuff, but anybody attempting to do this should have these and know how to use them.

I think that if you know how to change oil in your car, you have the ability to "build" an AR.... Or should I say... "Put together" an AR. It's not an AK for Gods sake.

[solidgun]

While putting together an AR style rifle doesnt take too much, I have seen poor builds brought in for problem solving because the "builder" lacked the skills to select the right parts.

Also, I have seen overtorqued uppers because torque wrenches were foreign concept to some people. How the used buyer missed the distortion in the upper was a mystery to me.

And yes, I had some guy blow up his AR a few benches down because of overpressure issues. His friend and an online post confirmed that his 223 build is same thing as a 5.56 build.

So you are right in saying that it is like Legos, but i have seen some piss poor builds that could be dangerous, inaccurate, or unreliable.


There are good ARs and then there are cheap imitations that fit the appearance. Just depends on how much you want to spend and what you want it for that will determine the quality.

[cgrant26]

Putting together an AR isn't the most complicated thing to do. That said, it does take at least a bit of ability and knowledge of the basics to get it right, especially on the upper side. I've been playing with ARs and M4/M16's long enough to have seen the most common points of failure.

Lower:
Springs installed incorrectly causing light primer strikes or locking pins to work their way out.
Leaving the disconnector out completely causing the trigger to not reset after a shot. (don't laugh, I've seen it)
Detents installed backwards or left out because they got lost during installation.
Trigger guard mount ears broken off due to not being supported while driving in the roll pin.
Scuffs, scratches and gouges from not protecting the lower while driving roll pins in.

Upper:
Improperly torqued barrel nut.
Using loctite instead of grease on the barrel nut making it damn near impossible to ever get off again.
While over-torquing the barrel nut can make it hard to take off again later, severely over-torquing it can actually bend or shear off the alignment pin on the barrel extension. If the alignment pin bends, the whole barrel can be canted in the upper causing mis-alinment of the bolt lugs. This will damage or destroy both the extension and the bolt. It can also cause feeding issues with the feed ramps being out of alignment. The upper can also be bent or cracked from over-torqing.
Barrel headspace being improperly set from the factory and not checked by a novice/lazy builder.
Using an M16 barrel extension on a lower with M4 feed ramps . (not as common anymore since the vast majority of barrel extensions and lowers have M4 feed ramps now)



Bolt Carrier Groups:
This is probably where you will see the biggest variations in quality.
Some companies stake the gas key screws by denting the material on the top of the gas key. Not a good way to stake those bolts IMO.

Good: (staked from the sides)


Not so good:


Horrible:


Some bolts are also made from better materials than others and any bolt you expect to be reliable should be MPI tested. Chrome lined carriers are the industry standard these days too.
Bolts with fancy chrome, Nickel Boron, etc coatings are nice but not necessary. BCGs don't really wear out quick enough to make it worth worrying about. Coatings can make them easier to clean, however.

Some good info on BCGs here:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/sh ... ier-Groups

Barrel/gas blocks:
Gas block not properly aligned, pinned or secured. This can cause all kinds of issues. It usually won't damage anything, but it can cause short-stroking, front sight cant or otherwise unreliable function. Some gas blocks with set screws require dimpling the barrel so the screws have something to "lock into" otherwise they can move around or loosen up as they heat up from firing.
Clamp-on blocks can be hard to keep aligned and clocked since they tend to move a bit when the clamping screws are tightened. (just like scope mounts)
Some companies might drill the gas ports larger or smaller. Too small will under-gas the rifle. Too large a port can potentially over-gas the rifle but that can be compensated for using weighted buffers, adjustable gas blocks and heavier bolt carriers.

With frankenrifles, you have to trust the builder matched all his/her components to work together properly. Not hard to do if you stick to quality brands and standard spec parts, but you're always risking having to replace parts to make such a rifle run smoothly.



I'll add more as I think of it.

[Tronster]

The FF Huldra (made by Adams Arms) is a well built AR. Full auto type BCG and simple to service piston drive. Gas key face for piston is integral machined into BCG, so no gas key screws to worry about. No sign of carrier tilt in rear buffer tube. As accurate as any DI AR with iron sights. JMHO.

[Hmac]

The FF Huldra (made by Adams Arms) is a well built AR. Full auto type BCG and simple to service piston drive. Gas key face for piston is integral machined into BCG, so no gas key screws to worry about. No sign of carrier tilt in rear buffer tube. As accurate as any DI AR with iron sights. JMHO.

I think the Huldra is a great rifle. I don't have much trigger time on one, but I've shot with (and against) them and have certainly seen them to be reliable. I know some of the principles in the company and respect them a lot. It is a well-thought out and well-executed enterprise by competent and dedicated people. I'm not completely sold on the gas piston over DI, but I do note that Fleet Farm has a new line of DI rifles (Korstog) that appear to be equally well done.

Norwegian nomenclature is a theme. Long story.

http://www.facebook.com/korstogarms