7.62 Modern Battle Rifle Experiences?

[UnaStamus]

I am looking for anyone that has feedback as a result of first hand experience shooting a modern battle rifle. This can be anything from sending some rounds downrange during a rental all the way up to owning one or using one in combat.
A couple of criteria:
-Particular interest in accuracy and reliability.
-Emphasis on semi-automatic piston operation only. Not looking for DI data (already have this)
-I'm only interested in modern 7.62x51/.308 battle rifles. There is no interest in M1A/M14, HK91/G3, FAL, etc.
-Example of options:
FN SCAR-17
HK MR762A1
LWRCI REPR
POF P308
Ruger SR-762
Sig 716
Any others??

Thanks much!

[johnlewjohn]

I really like my MR762.
Only complaints of the HK, it would be the weight, and lack of front sling loop options.
That and why are the mags so freak'n expensive? They are plastic for crying out loud.
I went with a DD rail mounted sling loop for the forward sling attachment.
IT is accurate, reliable, and I have never had any issue with it at all.
I would love to get some of the G28 hardware, if it becomes available.

Set up with a:
US Optics SN4 in an A.R.M.S.® #72Ext-LII 5.56 Cal. MKII Lever® Mount
Factory folding front and rear HK BUIS (MR762 sights, I had to wait for 6 months to get the correct rear sight.)
Atlas Bipod
Troy VTAC padded sling
Troy Vertical modular grip

The last time I spent some range time, I was working with the BUIS, and I had crappy ammo.
I am still working on various loads and bullet weights for optimum accuracy, but I haven't been disappointed yet.

[crbutler]

FN SCAR 17- Accuracy- acceptable. Loads that are well under MOA with my Baer .308 will go about 1.5" at 100. Several of the ones you state are of no interest have been more accurate than the SCAR. Reliability- Mine is pretty good so far. I had 1 burp with the first mag I shot brand new, but otherwise no problems. Maybe 40 rounds through it so far- its pretty new. It kicks them out a bit, but nothing like a HK91. Again, the M14, HK91, and AR 10 have all been as reliable or more so- the HK 91 is the only thing I have that has never had a problem of the semi autos. The only Military pattern rifle I have that is a POS is a Hesse FAL, and that is probably because its a Hesse, not a problem with FAL's.

I did shoot a G43 once (Nazi gun) that I think was a piston gun, but it might be long recoil, I don't remember- it was a buddy's gun. That would not shoot twice in a row with the ammo we had. (8x57)

While not quite what you are asking, I have a number of piston military type rifles. Mostly .223. (LMT, Armalite AR 18/180's, AUG's, AK's) All of them have had issues, including the AK, although that was in Africa (Game Scout's rifle) and it was an issue with the ammo being rusty.

In my experience, they run no better (and in some cases worse) that DI, they only real advantage the piston guns have is that they are a little easier to clean/maintain especially the receiver and bolt, except if you get some corrosive ammo and don't know it. The gas system will rust up pretty good (I didn't know it was corrosive, and while I like usual cleaned the bore and that showed no issues, the rifle (AR 180) needed some extensive work to get it to shoot reliably again after being stored for a year.) They also tend to be a little less accurate than the DI guns in my experience as well. They do have a little different feel to them when shooting also.

From a collection standpoint I have no issue with buying a rod operated gun in the future. I doubt that they will retire my current shooting guns, barring a major surprise somewhere.

[UnaStamus]

Essentially, the rifle must have multi-role capability. It will be used for patrol/entry CQB work, outside long gun DMR coverage, and may eventually be cycled into a sniper role if accuracy meets requirements. Rifle must have maximum 16" barrel (+/- 1"), minimum 14.5" barrel. Rifle must also be MOA-or-better accurate with match loads, and must be consistently accurate with true 5rd or 10rd groups. Part of the reason why Piston rifles are being investigated is because of possible suppressor use.

M1A/M14, HK91 and FAL rifles all are heavy, have poor balance, do not function well in CQB environments, and have a very high cost to make them accurate enough to meet the accuracy requirements. I've already investigated this, and I have experience behind the M1A/M14 and HK91, so I know from experience what it would take.
These rifles are solidly off the table, without debate.

5.56 carbines are already in service. The 7.62 is being investigated for an alternate heavy rifle option.

DI rifles have already been researched, which I noted above. Info has already be catalogued for them, including the LaRue OBR and PredatOBR, GA Precision GAP-10, Les Baer Monolithic, and JP PSC-12 and LRP-07. There are currently only two DI rifles in consideration at this point:
KAC SR-25 ECC
LMT LM8MWS

I'm basically trying to see if anyone has further information on any piston .308s with regard to accuracy or reliability. Also, ergos and comfort.

[johnlewjohn]

As far as a multi role, I like the way you are thinking.
The MR762, with the SN4 fills that nicely.
The SN4 is 1-4 x30, so it works great up close and still gives you the 4 power for longer distances.
I really like the Circle Chevron reticle, and I am comfortable engaging targets from 50 yds. all the way out to 400.
The weight issue I brought up earlier is really only an issue if you are going to be carrying it for 8 hours.
It is no heavier then any other quality battle rifle, and just as accurate.

If I had to run off into the woods, it is definitely one of the rifles I would grab and make sure I had with me.

[farmerj]

What you are asking for doesn't exist for all those rolls.

Cqb and close accuracy, but tossing in the sniper role makes it unrealistic.

The military has proven that time and again in the last 75 years every time its come out with that single purpose rifle.

Here and abroad.

[rottenit]

I've put about 1k down my scar 17s. Had one F2F early on (figured it was a break-in issue). I have a luopold mk6 1-6 on it, been debating a elcan but now they just came out with the SpecterTR 1-3-9 riflescope with 7.62 reticle:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... ic-preview

Otherwise its a range toy, haven't been too hard on it. The only "major" issue was with the FN mags I have had one crack on me and it appears there are a mess of them with a issue:

http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-scar-17s/2 ... cking.html

Maybe I don't have the "feel" for the rifle but I shoot it that accurately. My range only goes to 200yd and I can put the magazine on a 3/4 silhouette pretty fast with all 20 on it at 200. I haven't messed with too much precision shooting with it.

The scar for multirole may be an interesting option they do have the ability to change the barrel out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvntovQ9-PE

So with a bit of work you can go to cqb then to DMR, the sniper thing may be a bit of a stretch... FN has developed a different scar variant for that role the FN SCAR®-H TPR:

http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/p ... h-tpr.html

What would be really cool would be a 7.62 version of a shrike CQB to PR in like 30sec:

http://www.aresdefense.com/?page_id=109

[solidgun]

FN SCAR-17
I really like the weight, but the price of mags and short handguard location was an issue with me. This isn't an issue anymore as I got mine when it was originally introduced. Very easy to clean.

LWRCI REPR
Not much to say. It is an AR platform by a good company.

POF P308
I have to say that I like POF. Their piston design has not malfunctioned on me. Bit heavy, but what battle rifle doesn't have the weight. This would be my choice out of the ones listed.

Rest of the firearms listed have never interested me and I usually don't need an excuse to buy great firearms. I know Sig and HK are quality firearms and I would want one, but I have others that fulfill that role.

Not sure why I would bother with Ruger......

[UnaStamus]

What you are asking for doesn't exist for all those rolls.

Cqb and close accuracy, but tossing in the sniper role makes it unrealistic.

The military has proven that time and again in the last 75 years every time its come out with that single purpose rifle.

Here and abroad.

While Big Army won't accept widespread issue of it, SOF units are using the M110K1 with great effectiveness. It's essentially a FDE colored KAC SR-25 ECC. The same with the 16" LaRue OBR. Both are sub-MOA accurate with Mk316 Mod 0 and M118LR, effective range out past 800m, and 16" barrel makes it CQB capable.
Granted, a 16" barrel does not function as well in CQB as say, a 13" Mk17. Still, it's capable enough to be used in most applications that it would be employed in. It's part of the reason why the British adopted the LMT 308MWS as their L129A1 DMR platform- urban warfare capability with long range accuracy.
I'm being realistic in knowing that the rifle isn't going to be a "100% perfect for every use" platform, but given what I've been hearing and reading about some of these platforms, it's certainly capable of doing very well in every category. It's a multi-role capability, but I'm willing to accept that it won't be multi-role perfection.

Not sure why I would bother with Ruger......

It wasn't even on my radar until I read reviews indicating that it was sub-MOA capable with match ammo. SWAT Magazine had a decent write-up where they talked about abusing the SR-762 a bit, and also produced excellent accuracy. The price is very attractive, I must admit. I'm still not sold on Ruger as a brand, and the SR-762 is still very new. I tend to avoid new rifles like the plague until all of the problems are worked out.

[Doc Harvey]

I have been very happy with my Sig Sauer 716. It has fired every type of 7.62 x 51 I've put through it (from commercial Winchester & Federal to all of the MILSURP ammo I've fed it) and it has been utterly reliable. I have yet to actually bench rest it for zeroing, but I'm pretty sure its as accurate as anything else out there in 7.62/.308. I held an M&P 10 the same day I purchased the 716, and although I'm sure its a very good platform, the M&P felt "cheap". The fit and finish weren't nearly as good as the Sig. BTW, I have the "Patrol" variant, and I have not tried it out past 100 yards. I need to put some glass on it before I try that! I have to admit, that if I had enough money when I made my purchase, I would have picked up a SCAR, but they're out of my price range.

Don't believe any of the negative hype you might come across on You Tube regarding the 716. If you clean it thoroughly and relube it before you take it out for the first time it will run like a Swiss clock!

If you happen to live in the Twin Cities, and would like to put 10 rounds or so through my 716, just let me know which range you want to meet up at and I'll let you try her out.

[crbutler]

If this is for a LEO role, I would forget the HK 762 series and just get the 417. Why stick with the goofy plastic single stack magazine? The department can get them, and they are good (well reportedly anyhow...) in both the accuracy and reliability reports.

As for CQB, while not an operator, I have shot an inside stage with a .308 (the M14) in 3 gun, and it was, to put it mildly, unpleasant.

Maybe it would be different with a can on the rifle, but the amount of gas and muzzle blast had crap raining down on me all over the place and the muzzle blast was disorienting even with double plugs. Since that time, I haven't seen a stage like that again- probably because everyone admitted it was unpleasant, especially the RO's. Given that shorter barrels on .223 guns seem to make things worse with them, I can't see much good out of a .308 in that role.

Given what you have said, there is nothing inherently wrong with the SCAR 17 for what you are looking at. Its accurate enough for 600 yard engagements (and really, why would police use a CQB rifle for sniping at extended ranges anyhow?) and will hit man sized out to 800 easily, but I wouldn't be happy with a 12" group if I was trying to shoot in a hostage situation.

On the other hand, for specialized police work (SWAT), I don't see the value added for a piston gun. You guys should not be getting in firefights with 1000's of rounds where the reported difference in reliability would come in to play, and as paid professionals, maintenance should not be an issue... For the money, I wouldn't go there.

[UnaStamus]

I am actually not considering HK in any way. I don't know why I put that up there. Having dealt with HK before on other weapon issues, it's plainly obvious that they hate me and I suck. Dealing with HK's customer service is like chewing on nails. The MR762A1 is inferior to the HK417, but I still wouldn't get that either.

I got my hands on a S&W M&P10, and I also thought it felt cheap. Probably a good plinking rifle or brush rifle, but nothing I'd consider for patrol or tactical duty.

In re piston vs DI, I'm fairly heavily weighted towards DI already. I have LE quotes in place from both KAC and LMT, and they're both solidly in the lead. I'm just trying to do my due diligence and see if there is anything in the piston realm that is worth the time and effort to consider.
LaRue used to be on the table during a sniper rifle procurement effort a while back that I consulted on, but they dropped off the list the instant they abolished their LE discount on rifles.

[BigDog58]

I'm in the process of putting together my first AR and am leaning toward a piston upper. Can one of you more experienced in the two platforms give me some ideas or reasons as to why one would be more accurate than the other? I will be hand loading my ammo for my gun and plan to shoot it put to 300 yds. I still haven't completely decided which platform to go with, but I tend to like the idea of keeping the bolt and chamber cool and clean with the piston as opposed to the DI. Is my reasoning incorrect?

Also to the OP, back in the 90's I owned the HK91 but didn't handload back then. I seem to remember the extractor was hell on the brass (note mine was select fire Class 3, if that affects it). It wasn't anywhere close to the accuracy of my other 7.62 guns, but it was fun to shoot and suited me out to about 100yds. I am learning a bit reading your topic, thanks for posting. I hope that once I've built my first AR in 5.56 my second will be in 7.62 (hope to use it for deer and hogs)

[johnlewjohn]

Final thoughts on the HK...

In my experience, the quality of customer service is directly proportional to the issue you are trying to resolve.
Some companies quotes are better looking up front, knowing you will only have to purchase replacement inventory later on for their "lesser quality firearms".

The 417 and MR762 use the same mags. Not sure what you mean by single stack.
417 would be department owned, 762 officer owned.

I would at least look their system.
It's like settling for a Dodge when the GMC Sierra is right there in front of you...sure, it may be a little more money, but it is professional grade, and that makes all the difference.

[crbutler]

I thought the 762 was like the USC et al in that they made a "special" mag so that it could not accept military stuff. They imply this on the web site. I might get a 762 if it wasn't neutered like that.

The last HK rifle I looked at had this issue.

That is what I was talking about. If they are 20 round military mags, then that's a nonissue.