converting saiga 12

[7808]

have a saiga 12, I plan on converting it, is there any MN specific regulations to doing this?

is this http://www.dinzagarms.com/922r/922r.html accurate? so I need 7 us made parts? and the fire control group, grip and stock count as 5? does a muzzle break count as another, and I need one more little part then?

is there any real advantage to rivet vs. screw vs. welding? as of right now I was planning on using screws, but I do have a mig welder

is there any local places that stock conversion parts? any other tips appreciated, im off to google and youtube

[UnaStamus]

There is a lot of data out there indicating that the Saiga 12 has some reliability issues out of the box, and reliability modifications help things along. I would suggest contacting a gunsmith familiar with the system. My preference would be Rifle Dynamics.
http://rifledynamics.com/pages/saiga-rifles-shotguns

[crbutler]

I don't think that there are any Minnesota state regs about it, but I am not a lawyer.

I still don't understand what you mean by "convert" though.

Are you suggesting converting a Saiga 12 to select fire? Don't even think about it.

You can ask the ATF, and they will answer the questions, albeit on their own time frame.

[Nougat]

I don't think that there are any Minnesota state regs about it, but I am not a lawyer.

I still don't understand what you mean by "convert" though.

Are you suggesting converting a Saiga 12 to select fire? Don't even think about it.

that link up there says something about needing to switch out imported parts to be allowed to use high capacity mags or DRUMS? I'm glad I decided to not afford it (got an 870 with a neat spring recoil reduction system pistol grip stock for so much less$)as I would have never known and it would have cost even more to get what I thought I already had, if I did ever find out about this issue. then there is the other great option of getting in trouble after buying a drum or high cap mag that seems like it would be pretty bad too.

[7808]

honestly was not aware of any reliability issues with the saiga 12s until I got one and started reading more about them, thought they were just a 12ga AK and have wanted one for a while, feel like they are a little over priced now haha. I have no real use for it but for fun. recent current events made me decide to go get one even though I shouldn't spend the money.. also I thought converting it my self would be fun. I never really work on any of my guns, theres not much to do to them, I mean my AR I can slap other parts on but that's easy

I didn't think there was any legal issues with running hi cap mags I thought they were just set up for sporting configuration so they could be imported


just looking for advice and tips on the best way to diy convert it, and if theres any local places that stock the parts, not info on where I can send it to pay the price of the gun for them to convert it, or why I should have bought something else.

[UnaStamus]

The only state-specific law would be to ensure that the shotgun meets barrel length and overall length requirements for NFA, since Short Barrel Shotguns are illegal in MN.

[Nougat]

The only state-specific law would be to ensure that the shotgun meets barrel length and overall length requirements for NFA, since Short Barrel Shotguns are illegal in MN.

so theres not some sort of federal law that makes the gun illegal when he'd put a ''high cap mag'' in?

[jshuberg]

Imported shotguns are subject to 922(r) regulations. Basically, in order to be imported it needs be be in a "sporterized" configuration. Once in the US you can convert it to a non-sporterized configuration, but you must replace a number of parts to US manufactured parts. BATFE maintains a list of parts that qualify for the purposes of conversion (a flash hider isn't one of them), and how many parts need to be replaced depends on the weapon and final configuration.

I have a Benelli M4 shotgun that I converted to the military configuration used by the marines. If memory serves, 3 parts needed to be replaced, except after removing the fixed stock with a collapsible stock. The stock and pistol grip were considered 2 different parts, requiring a total of 4 US made parts in order to be 922(r) compliant. The parts I swapped were the mag tube, mag follower, hammer, and forearm.

I'm not familiar with the Saiga 12 specifically, but you need to do a little research and figure out how to do this legally. Chances are than companies that manufacture US parts for the purpose of conversion will have a link to a BATFE determination letter for their product, indicating which parts need to be replaced.

This has to be the most ridiculous firearm reg we have to comply with. But we have to comply with it to be legal.

[7808]

ive read it IS and IS NOT illegal to use hi cap mags in a s12, ive read its legal if its converted, and ive read its legal as long as your not hunting even un-converted..

[jshuberg]

I've read that space aliens told Bigfoot to put a chip into Jessie Ventura's head. Occasionally, things you read may not be true. Even on the internet.

The BATFE has issued many dozens, possibly hundreds of determination letters on this subject. Since they are the ones who "count", I'd highly recommend following their interpretation of the law. By modifying an imported firearm to accept a "high capacity" magazine (capable of holding more than 5 rounds for shotguns), it is no longer in a "sporterized" configuration and must be converted in accordance with 922(r) or the firearm becomes illegal. To do this, you must replace a number of foreign made parts with US made parts so that the number of parts that are "counted" as defined in 27 CFR 478.39 is 10 or less.

Below are links to 18 USC 922(r), 27 CFR 478.39, and a recent determination letter from BATFE on which "counted" parts exist in a Saiga 12 shotgun. In order to be legal, if you change the weapon out of it's "sporterized" configuration you must replace 5 of the foreign made "counted" parts to get the total number to 10 or less. The "counted" parts on a Saiga shotgun as imported according to BATFE are:

• Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
• Barrels
• Mounting blocks (trunions)
• Bolts
• Bolt carriers
• Operating rods
• Gas pistons
• Triggers
• Hammers
• Disconnectors
• Butt stocks
• Forearms, hand guards
• Magazine bodies
• Followers
• Floorplates

Note that the Saiga 12 shotgun as imported does not have a pistol grip or muzzle device. However, those are often parts that are desired on a 922(r) converted Saiga 12, so if you wish to add them they must have been manufactured in the US or their presence on the weapon will increase the total number of foreign parts that need to be replaced. Be careful here, many US companies outsource their manufacturing for firearm accessories, and if the replacement part you buy was actually made in China or Israel, you'd be in violation of the law. There are many companies that manufacture parts specifically for performing 922(r) conversions that stamp "Made in the USA" on the part so as to eliminate any ambiguity as to where the part was born.

There are lots of forums and other information on 922(r) compliance. Some of the info is correct, some is going to be incorrect. Ultimately, it's up to you as the person performing the conversion to ensure compliance with the law. If you make sure to replace the correct number of foreign made counted parts, and make sure the replacement parts were actually manufactured in the US, you should be OK. If the part isn't stamped as being made in the US, keep the invoice for the part so if you ever need to prove where the part came from you can. This is mostly so if you ever decide to sell it, you can demonstrate that it is actually 922(r) compliant to the purchaser.

There are some people who argue that no one has ever been charged with a 922(r) violation. I have no idea if that is true or not, but what is almost certain is that if charged it would most likely be an add-on charge should BATFE have another reason to seize your firearms. It's unlikely that there are BATFE agents going to gun clubs and shooting ranges looking for 922(r) violations. That being said, while it's kind of a pain in the ass, if you want your weapon to be legal you have to do this, even though from a practical standpoint it makes absolutely no sense at all.

Another legal issue is that you absolutely cannot have a barrel on a shotgun less than 18 inches, or an overall length less than 26 inches, as that would make it a Short Barrel Shotgun, which requires registration prior to being manufactured with the BATFE - except that Short Barrel Shotguns are illegal in MN under 609.67 unless the SBS is a curio-relic. Other than this, there are no other MN specific statutes or regulations that involve converting a Saiga 12 shotgun out of it's "sporterized" configuration.

If I were converting a Saiga 12 shotgun, the foreign parts I would replace with US made parts would be the following:

• Trigger
• Hammer
• Disconnector
• Buttstock
• Forearm

Additionally, I would want to add the following counted parts, so these must also be of US manufacture:

• Muzzle device
• Pistol Grip

One last thing, if you replace the magazine and it's follower as 2 of the parts for 922(r) conversion, you can no longer use the original (or any other) foreign made magazine if any other changes to the shotgun have resulted in it no longer being considered "sporterized" (installing a pistol grip, folding stock, muzzle device, etc). Because magazines are removable, I wouldn't use it or it's follower as replacement parts for 922(r) conversion. Doing so would limit your options and could inadvertently result in an illegal firearm if the wrong magazine is ever inserted.

I am not a lawyer. If you have legal questions, contact the BATFE or a lawyer specializing in firearms law.

I've edited this post quite a few times while going over the details specific to the Saiga 12, how I would approach this kind of project, and which parts I'd replace. Hope this helps

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.39
http://www.dinzagarms.com/downloads/bat ... -13-11.pdf

[FJ540]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39043&p=426812&hilit=saiga#p426812

Completely worthless for hunting without the long barrel.

[crbutler]

One easy thing is to use the Surefire 12 round mags.

US compliant, count as a few pieces (3) for US use.

If all you are doing is swapping parts (to me converting a semi auto means making it select fire...) the ATF pretty clearly states what you can do. Add a US made stock and forearm and you have 5 parts right there. To be honest, these guns need a lot of work before they are anywhere near reliable.

[goda0301]

you wont have more fun deer hunting with anything else....