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[LumberZach]

Hey all,

Does anybody here shoot shotguns much? I've shot a lot of trap, but I've slowed down on that and doing sporting clays more lately and I've somewhat decided I need an o/u. So what do you guys like for shooting O/U's? I guess I want a browning, but $2,000 will take a while to save up for. CZ looks like they make nice ones though.


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[smurfman]

I have not been impressed with the CZ's, some will be good and trouble-free while others are very problematic. I shoot sporting clays league with a person who shoots a CZ or at least tries to. For years and he has yet to have it last through a whole summer. It's been back to CZ at least twice and Laib at least twice. I have run into several others with similar experiences. To be fair, I also know of several others who have had no issues with theirs. I consider it too much of a crapshoot to risk on it

I Buy used. It is not too difficult to find a used Browning or Beretta in the thousand dollar or a bit more range and one can often find an SKB for a little under. I would much rather trust to a used gun of known Quality than a new one of questionable. Just my opinion.

[mmcnx2]

I was on CZ pro staff for about 5 years and never saw one of their doubles fail. I'm not a browning fan, they are to heavy for a long day in the field and I don't care for there lock up mechanism - makes for a wide frame (traditional European) design much like a Ruger.

If you are not a CZ fan - for a bit more money you could look at Franchi (a Beretta holding), a Beretta or a Fausti.

The Italian guns are going to be lighter, more elegant in the hand. The Turkish guns(like CZ) are a happy medium between the Italian and European designs.

I personally would steer clean of the mossberg, stoeger, remington and tristar - they are pretty entry level.

[ex-LT]

I have a CZ Redhead, and while I only have about 2000 rounds through it, I have never had an issue with it. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger, has never doubled, and the barrels appear to be regulated properly. My biggest problem is I need to get it fit to me in order to shoot it more consistently (that and I just don't seem to have enough time to shoot any more).

[JJ]

I have seen a couple spotty reports of issues with the CZ O/U's as well. Not prolific, but they do exist, as all manufactured items will have a certain percentage of failures. The lower the price, generally the higher the likelyhood of QC issues. Overall, I really do like the CZ SxS's, a little more than the O/U's. Given the price point, i too would look at used guns in the same pricepoint (if you are stuck to a O/U)

I agree with mmcnx2 on the Browning O/U's, they seem heavy to me, and the action size is notably larger than other frames on the market.

I personally love the Ruger Red Label, one of the smallest frames on the market, and light/nimble in the hands.

SKB's are straight up workhorse guns, exceptionally reliable (but a PITA to fix if they do break down). They can often times be had for under $900 on the used rack.

Beretta's are solid, but they seem to be hard to find even used under $1000

I actually have had a ton of luck with the Baikal (pre Spartan/Remington SPR310) as a beater gun. I've literally used mine as a canoe paddle, and I've fully stripped it to pins and springs. It's ugly, wood/metal fit is poor, wood finish is spotty, but it NEVER fails to go bang. I may have gotten lucky, or they may be a tremendous entry level gun (i would lean towards the former).

[mmcnx2]

I kept the CZ SxS after the prostaff gig, it is a little 28 gauge and a great work horse. I did just buy a Parker in 28 so the CZ will end up being a dog training gun or a loaner.

I'm a new gun guy, to many amateur gun smiths these day playing with internals, also many folks just don't take care of their stuff.

It really depends what you are buying it for. In the field I'd look at reducing carry weight, for sporting clays heavier the better. Also how long do you expect to keep it, if it is long term purchase and extra $500-$1000 is nothing spread over a 20 year investment. I will say trying a cheap double and assuming you like/dislike them is not a fair comparison. Pickup up a quality Italian double and they really are a work of art and engineering marvels.

[Holland&Holland]

I actually have had a ton of luck with the Baikal (pre Spartan/Remington SPR310) as a beater gun. I've literally used mine as a canoe paddle, and I've fully stripped it to pins and springs. It's ugly, wood/metal fit is poor, wood finish is spotty, but it NEVER fails to go bang. I may have gotten lucky, or they may be a tremendous entry level gun (i would lean towards the former).

I also have 2 Baikals, one pre-Remington, one right after they started carrying the line. One is an o/u the other a ss. While the O/U is a bit on the heavy side of O/Us I think it is as JJ states a real workhorse and can take a beating. If one is looking for a solid performer that one will not care if it gets dinged, this is not a bad way to go. The SS is in .28 ga and must be built on a smaller frame than a 20 ga gun because it is light, a dream to carry and yet fits me well and swings nice.

[mmcnx2]

Scaled frames are a must for sub gauge doubles. It kind of defeats the purpose to carry a 28 if it is on a 20 frame or a 20 on a 12. If I had to have only one double it would be a 16, but given I have a 12, 20 and 28 I just can't get myself to drop $5-7K on a 16. I upland hunt with pointers mostly, so the 20 and 28 are my daily carries. The 12 goes to the rare sporting clay outing or if I tag along with some guy with long range flushers. I gave up waterfowl hunting years ago when you started needing a cargo trailer to cart all the carp around.

[Sigfan220]

For sporting plan on dropping about $2000 absolute minimum if you want to hang with the big boys. Plan on closer to $10K if you really want to play. If you shoot anything but AA, STS or hand loads you will likely not see much of a gain from having another choke. In my opinion O/U's give a slight advantage in sporting given the prober choke selection, loads and fit. However most guys don't give a crap about any of that. If you are just playing around and are not shooting a lot or are not shooting NSCA events just get a Benelli. I switched from hand loads to Rio's a couple years ago and will likely switch back to my Benelli M2 from my 686 Sporting. I really am not seeing much of a difference between the two guns now. The cheap ammo just does not shoot well. I however do not have time to load 12ga anymore and can't justify AA's or STS's to pick up another bird or two per 50 targets. Back when I got the O/U I would give my left nut to pick up another bird or two per 50. I tried everything, various chokes, wads, powders, shot and shot about 5,000 rounds that year. I'd say it all helped but I just don't take it that seriously. Of all things I did that year practice was #1 over everything. Coming in at #2 I would say loads, followed by chokes. A good load will perform better out of a variety of chokes, thus nearly eliminating the need for a second choke in many cases. In all honesty 90% of all shots either 5 stand or sporting can be taken with an IC choke and #8 shot. If I switch the he M2 that IC choke will likely stay in all season.

What it boils down to is: Buying an O/U will more than likely not make you a better shot. Buying a cheap(anything under $1500) O/U will likely be a disappointment and will not yield the same gains as a good O/U. Cheap O/U's are likely going to have short forcing cones, tight barrels and short choke tubes all are murder on patterns. My advice is to get a good Benelli and use that money you saved on ammo and practice rounds. Sporting takes a lot of practice to get good at regardless of weather you drop $2000 or $1200 on a gun. That savings would be better spent on actually working to improve your game VS having a cool gun.

If you go O/U go heavy and go long. You can't have a barrel too long for sporting. I think mine's a 30" a 32" would have been nice, a lot run 34". If you are getting an dedicated auto a 30" would be nice. If you are just doing this for fun, none of this really matters just get something you like.

I'd be game for some shooting if you want to try my 686 Sporting. I normally shoot at Metro or MN H&H, South St Paul is fun too.

[smurfman]

As a field gun, the Citori can get a bit weighty. One can get around that by using a Featherlight which can shave a fair bit of weight off the gun. If the deeper receiver of the Citori is an issue one can look at the Cynergy which is much shallower as well as lighter than the Citori. Going with a fixed choke or early standard Invector model will also lessen weight over a similar Invector Plus model, particularly up front.

For competition I am biased toward Browning though it was based more on the price I could buy them. I also find the added weight, especially up front, to help absorb recoil when shooting heavy loads or when shooting a number of rounds in a day. This added weight also helps me with follow through though others may find it a hinderance.

I have bought many used O/Us and have yet to find any that have been messed with by amateurs. Nearly every last one still had the shipping protectant in the receiver and the couple that didn't were bought from people as anal as I am at "properly" lubing the internals. Those that have had trigger/sear work done used the services of a proven gunsmith and were free with the telling as a selling point. buying a used gun is much easier than buying a used car with many fewer risks. A few simple things to look for will keep one from buying a worn gun but even so, if the price is right a rebuild will run around $350 and one will end up with a gun that should give trouble free use over tens of thousands of rounds.

Finding a sub-$1000 O/U is not uncommon though it will take some effort and a little good fortune. I've bought 2 Beretta Essentials for slightly over that amount for the pair, a fixed M/Full choke SKB field gun with 30" barrels for $500, and a Browning Superposed similar to the SKB for $900 si I've seen similar deals other times/places but either didn't have the money or had other plans for it. These were all at gun/pawn shops and I have seen similar deals on bulletin boards and word of mouth. If one isn't able/willing to search then luck becomes more and more important. Or one is relegated to buying new and taking the hit on depreciation if the choice is not what it first appeared.

As for the Baikal, I once heard it described as today's equivalent of the old Stevens 311 type of SxS. They aren't fancy and are pretty rough but they do generally work. I will say the later ones are not as rough as the earlier ones as one can usually open them without using both hands and a knee or other horizontal object. I know many dog trainers who use one for training and they have been happy with them for that purpose. i never warmed to them but some have.

[crbutler]

To me, the older ones are nicer, so I would look at the used market first.

The o/u I shoot the most is a Winchester 101. It's quite a bit lighter than the Brownings.

I also use a Beretta 686 some, and that is a very nice, light piece.

If you want a browning, the superposed is the nice one, but is a lot of dough to find a nice one. The Citoris are tough and as they are heavy, they do soak up recoil without needing porting.

I have shot a friend's Perrazi some. Very nice gun, but until I am willing to pay to have one fitted, it's not worth the additional money.

The CZ and other less expensive foreign made doubles are generally less aesthetic, but if they fit, will serve well enough, and all seem to have a warranty that will fix egregious items.

I am pretty much a field shot with shotguns, and haven't played the games since high school, but do remember that if you are trying to play the game at a high level, the equipment gets exponentially more expensive for increasingly small increments of improvement. A basic browning trap gun or sporting gun will serve you well until you reach elite levels and will last that long as well. The cheaper foreign stuff might well go off face 10 years down the road.

[LumberZach]

First off, I want to say thanks to everyone! This is a ton of good information! I will say that I am looking at the franchi now, as I didn't know about them as much, and they are looking to be about the price point I am looking for. I will also say this isn't my first shotgun and I'm not really looking for a workhorse. I'd like an o/u I can hunt with, but getting into the sporting clays more. I'm not competing at all yet, so top of the line DT11 isn't real necessary yet, but I would like a shotgun I can shoot tens of thousands of rounds through and still pass down to my great grand children.

[LumberZach]

I sense I should bite the bullet and get a browning 725 sporting but I will have to talk myself into that one quite a bit. I understand that the longer the barrel the better, and if I can find a 32" I would lean that way, but looking around I'm thinking a 30" will work for me. Again, I've been shooting trap to some degree for a little under 10 years, and I was planning on getting a bt99, but that limits me shooting doubles of any kind, and a nice sporting o/u will do better than the current pump guns I have been using.



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[LumberZach]

I have some nice tactical guns, but lately I've been shooting a $300 Remington 887 and I've decided I really need to step up my game. The 887 will work for a boat paddle as well haha it would be cool to find a gun I could also duck hunt with, But that's not really what I'm looking for.
Sorry I had to post like this. Tapatalk is giving me lots of trouble as usual ha


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[smurfman]

I would hold off on a 32" Citori as they are pretty muzzle heavy. I went from a 30" to a 32", both with Invector Plus barrels, and wish I would have stayed with the shorter barrel. The added weight is really noticeable and is a bit more than I prefer. I shoot it very well but it is not my preference.

I shot a Ceasar Guerini with 34" barrels and it was a wonderful gun. The difference was in barrel thickness and diameter with the CG being thinner and smaller diameter. I would have gotten the CG if not for being able to get the Browning at a substantial discount. The so called "back bored" (more correctly over bored) shotguns can be a bit front heavy as they often have more metal than those of normal bore diameter. It is a reason I often gravitate to the older models.

A 30" barrel gun will do anything needed on the target field; if you decide a longer barrel is necessary it will be long after you gain enough experience to make a decision for yourself. As has already been mentioned, lessons from a decent instructor will put you further ahead than a new gun. Breaking more targets is a "software" problem which comes from learning and experience and trying to improve with "hardware" doesn't work as one's basic skills and knowledge has not improved.