So how good is a $629 AR-15???

[shooter115]

Accuracy is far from the most important element in assessing the quality of an AR-15.

In some sense I'm sure your right, but at the end of the day or TSHTF either your bullets were on target and you're still alive, or you missed and you're dead. Yes, you can have jam failures and a lot of other things, but you're still dead if your gun runs like a Swiss watch but won't put the bullets on the target.

It's a combat weapon, not a bench rest rifle. I want to be able to shoot an 8 inch group at 100 yards. There are very few ARs that won't do that and most will shoot 2-3 MOA. The weak spot isn't accuracy, it's reliablity. The most accurate M&P/Bushmaster/DPMS or other price-point rifle in the world is no good as a defensive rifle it it won't stay in the fight because of substandard parts and corner-cutting in the QA department.

Accuracy is not the most important component of an AR.

I disagree. An AR can be built to serve any purpose you want it to. Whether that is defense, benchrest/target shooting, varmint hunting, big game hunting, competition in multiple disciplines and in a variety of .22 rimfire capacities. I think I'm up to 9 AR platform guns now, all built to fill different roles and none of them are alike, but if any one of them shot an 8 MOA group it would be shortly laying in pieces. You saying the only use for an AR is as a combat weapon sounds like it's coming straight out of the Anti's playbook.

As far as reliability goes. With more years of hunting and competitive shooting with AR's that I even care to think about anymore. I can only remember having one malfunction that disabled a rifle and it wasn't even the guns fault. In my varmint/target rifle I had switched to a wax based sizing lube for my accuracy loads and it gummed up the chamber after a few hundred rounds out P-doggin, I had a case get stuck in the chamber. Extractor ripped a chunk of the rim right off the case and needed a cleaning rod to pop it out. That's it. In 20 years of coyote hunting, p-doggin, target shooting and 3-gun competition with countless thousands of rounds, I've had one true stoppage. I guess I don't see a weak spot in reliability based off my own experience.

2-3 MOA........pfft

[UnaStamus]

Without putting words in his mouth, I can surmise that HMAC is likely pointing out the limitations and requirements for a rifle in the price point that is being discussed here, as well as the format of the rifle (I.e. Military/defense style configuration vs varmint/target configuration).

Accuracy is a red herring with ARs. Most barrels are outsourced/contracted from a larger barrel manufacturer, and the quality of the rifle has very little to do with accuracy. I have seen rifles shooting sub-MOA groups that were unreliable pieces of junk. Realistically, a trained chimp could assemble and sell an accurate AR15. The hard part is putting together and selling a rifle that meets necessary quality requirements. If the rifle is purchased specifically for shooting accurate groups or low rate of fire accuracy, you have likely achieved the quality that you sought. If you want a reliable fighting rifle, the accuracy should be an added side benefit with high quality components and proper assembly being the main priority. The fortunate thing is that while S&W is on my shltlist for a myriad of reasons, they certainly do offer a far better product than most competitors in the same price category.

[Hmac]

Without putting words in his mouth, I can surmise that HMAC is likely pointing out the limitations and requirements for a rifle in the price point that is being discussed here, as well as the format of the rifle (I.e. Military/defense style configuration vs varmint/target configuration).

Accuracy is a red herring with ARs. Most barrels are outsourced/contracted from a larger barrel manufacturer, and the quality of the rifle has very little to do with accuracy. I have seen rifles shooting sub-MOA groups that were unreliable pieces of junk. Realistically, a trained chimp could assemble and sell an accurate AR15. The hard part is putting together and selling a rifle that meets necessary quality requirements. If the rifle is purchased specifically for shooting accurate groups or low rate of fire accuracy, you have likely achieved the quality that you sought. If you want a reliable fighting rifle, the accuracy should be an added side benefit with high quality components and proper assembly being the main priority. The fortunate thing is that while S&W is on my shltlist for a myriad of reasons, they certainly do offer a far better product than most competitors in the same price category.

Thank you for putting accurate words in my mouth. That was indeed my point.

And I agree, in the budget, price-point, consumer-grade rifle category the M&P rifles seem to be at that top of that particular heap.

Accuracy...I don't think I have ever, in 20 years, shot an AR from a sandbag for groups. I always considered that to be irrelevant to its purpose for me. The accuracy that I want is an 8 inch circle, offhand, from 50 yards. Sometimes I can achieve that, but if I can't, it's virtually always my fault, not the rifle's.

[Erud]

Without putting words in his mouth, I can surmise that HMAC is likely pointing out the limitations and requirements for a rifle in the price point that is being discussed here, as well as the format of the rifle (I.e. Military/defense style configuration vs varmint/target configuration).

Accuracy is a red herring with ARs. Most barrels are outsourced/contracted from a larger barrel manufacturer, and the quality of the rifle has very little to do with accuracy. I have seen rifles shooting sub-MOA groups that were unreliable pieces of junk. Realistically, a trained chimp could assemble and sell an accurate AR15. The hard part is putting together and selling a rifle that meets necessary quality requirements. If the rifle is purchased specifically for shooting accurate groups or low rate of fire accuracy, you have likely achieved the quality that you sought. If you want a reliable fighting rifle, the accuracy should be an added side benefit with high quality components and proper assembly being the main priority. The fortunate thing is that while S&W is on my shltlist for a myriad of reasons, they certainly do offer a far better product than most competitors in the same price category.

Thank you for putting accurate words in my mouth. That was indeed my point.

And I agree, in the budget, price-point, consumer-grade rifle category the M&P rifles seem to be at that top of that particular heap.

Accuracy...I don't think I have ever, in 20 years, shot an AR from a sandbag for groups. I always considered that to be irrelevant to its purpose for me. The accuracy that I want is an 8 inch circle, offhand, from 50 yards. Sometimes I can achieve that, but if I can't, it's virtually always my fault, not the rifle's.

Yeah, I'd sure have to think that would be your fault. I don't know what you'd have to do to a rifle to make it not hold 16 MOA.

[Seismic Sam]

Damn Erud, you are a funny guy, even if it is in a sort of Erudite way...... Do I remember that you are the guy with the Prometheus powder measure??

But back to my little outing on the bench. To ask a relevant question of Hmac: If you don't know what the variability of the rifle is on the bench, how can you possibly shoot offhand with confidence if you don't know that your own muscular control and offhand shooting skill is the major contributor of variability?? If half of it is coming from the gun, you're going to 2nd guess yourself into a nervous breakdown.

And I bring that up because while I didn't have a nervous breakdown (I was already crazy, so WGAF???), my SP1 developed some very unusual quirks, and there was very clearly a ghost in the machine somewhere. Two or three bullets might obligingly group, and then the 4th shot (on the bench...) would move 6 inches over. I finally concluded this was a losing cause, and sent the SP1 to take a 38 year nap in the gun safe, where it at least appreciated to approximately 15 times its initial price.

And with that experience in the back of my head, plus lots of other stuff like tracking down gremlins in loading processes at home and Six Sigma projects at work, you really have to find out what are the sources of variability for your whole (meaning gun, ammo, optics (iron or glass), and loose nut behind the trigger) system. Do you REALLY not know what the inherent variability of an AR is that you are going to use to keep yourself alive???

[Randygmn]

Without putting words in his mouth, I can surmise that HMAC is likely pointing out the limitations and requirements for a rifle in the price point that is being discussed here, as well as the format of the rifle (I.e. Military/defense style configuration vs varmint/target configuration).

Accuracy is a red herring with ARs. Most barrels are outsourced/contracted from a larger barrel manufacturer, and the quality of the rifle has very little to do with accuracy. I have seen rifles shooting sub-MOA groups that were unreliable pieces of junk. Realistically, a trained chimp could assemble and sell an accurate AR15. The hard part is putting together and selling a rifle that meets necessary quality requirements. If the rifle is purchased specifically for shooting accurate groups or low rate of fire accuracy, you have likely achieved the quality that you sought. If you want a reliable fighting rifle, the accuracy should be an added side benefit with high quality components and proper assembly being the main priority. The fortunate thing is that while S&W is on my shltlist for a myriad of reasons, they certainly do offer a far better product than most competitors in the same price category.

Thank you for putting accurate words in my mouth. That was indeed my point.

And I agree, in the budget, price-point, consumer-grade rifle category the M&P rifles seem to be at that top of that particular heap.

Accuracy...I don't think I have ever, in 20 years, shot an AR from a sandbag for groups. I always considered that to be irrelevant to its purpose for me. The accuracy that I want is an 8 inch circle, offhand, from 50 yards. Sometimes I can achieve that, but if I can't, it's virtually always my fault, not the rifle's.

Yeah, I'd sure have to think that would be your fault. I don't know what you'd have to do to a rifle to make it not hold 16 MOA.

Una could confirm this, but combat effective is considered approx 3 MOA . Also, I've never heard of a rifled barrel shooting 16Moa, lol. 16 MOA aside, 8 MOA would be considered defective under any circumstance.

[UnaStamus]

The M4 with M855 ammo must be able to shoot 4 MOA per Army requirements. This is part of the reason why ATK won the Lake City AAP contract and took it over from Winchester many years back. Winchester M855 was averaging 8 MOA.

[Hmac]

Una could confirm this, but combat effective is considered approx 3 MOA . Also, I've never heard of a rifled barrel shooting 16Moa, lol. 16 MOA aside, 8 MOA would be considered defective under any circumstance.

You can put all your shots into a 3 inch circle with a red dot sight from 100 yards while standing, shooting the rifle offhand from the shoulder? Unsupported? That is AWESOME combat shooting.

I'm not talking about the RIFLE shooting 16 MOA slow fire from a sandbag, rest, or bench, or supported in any way. I'm talking about the SHOOTER shooting 16 MOA in a defensive scenario. "Low ready, up, two shots"...you know the drill. Right?

[Erud]

Una could confirm this, but combat effective is considered approx 3 MOA . Also, I've never heard of a rifled barrel shooting 16Moa, lol. 16 MOA aside, 8 MOA would be considered defective under any circumstance.

You can put all your shots into a 3 inch circle with a red dot sight from 100 yards while standing, shooting the rifle offhand from the shoulder? Unsupported? That is AWESOME combat shooting.

I'm not talking about the RIFLE shooting 16 MOA slow fire from a sandbag, rest, or bench, or supported in any way. I'm talking about the SHOOTER shooting 16 MOA in a defensive scenario. "Low ready, up, two shots"...you know the drill. Right?

You mentioned that when you couldn't hold 16 MOA that it was "virtually always" your fault, not the rifle's, implying that on rare occasions it is actually the rifle's fault. What's going on with your rifle on those occasions?

[Hmac]

You mentioned that when you couldn't hold 16 MOA that it was "virtually always" your fault, not the rifle's, implying that on rare occasions it is actually the rifle's fault. What's going on with your rifle on those occasions?

Let me rephrase so as to prevent others from trying to assume my implications. If I can't put all my rounds into an 8 inch circle from 50 yards it's ALWAYS my fault. Not the rifle's.

I apologize for confusing you by not being more clear.

[Erud]

You mentioned that when you couldn't hold 16 MOA that it was "virtually always" your fault, not the rifle's, implying that on rare occasions it is actually the rifle's fault. What's going on with your rifle on those occasions?

Let me rephrase so as to prevent others from trying to assume my implications. If I can't put all my rounds into an 8 inch circle from 50 yards it's ALWAYS my fault. Not the rifle's.

I apologize for confusing you by not being more clear.

Thank you.

[Randygmn]

Una could confirm this, but combat effective is considered approx 3 MOA . Also, I've never heard of a rifled barrel shooting 16Moa, lol. 16 MOA aside, 8 MOA would be considered defective under any circumstance.

You can put all your shots into a 3 inch circle with a red dot sight from 100 yards while standing, shooting the rifle offhand from the shoulder? Unsupported? That is AWESOME combat shooting.

I'm not talking about the RIFLE shooting 16 MOA slow fire from a sandbag, rest, or bench, or supported in any way. I'm talking about the SHOOTER shooting 16 MOA in a defensive scenario. "Low ready, up, two shots"...you know the drill. Right?

No I can't. But that's not rifle or ammo related.

[photogpat]

Let me rephrase so as to prevent others from trying to assume my implications. If I can't put all my rounds into an 8 inch circle from 50 yards it's ALWAYS my fault. Not the rifle's.

Not always....some foreign-made open base .224 bullets would have irregular seating into the rifling when fired, resulting in groups, from a rest, of as much as 14" at 100yds....

It's why the smart money always test fires with more than one brand of ammo.

[crbutler]

Heck, even my completely shot out .416 Rigby barrel shot better than 8" groups at 50.... At 100 was a different matter.

[Hmac]

Una could confirm this, but combat effective is considered approx 3 MOA . Also, I've never heard of a rifled barrel shooting 16Moa, lol. 16 MOA aside, 8 MOA would be considered defective under any circumstance.

You can put all your shots into a 3 inch circle with a red dot sight from 100 yards while standing, shooting the rifle offhand from the shoulder? Unsupported? That is AWESOME combat shooting.

I'm not talking about the RIFLE shooting 16 MOA slow fire from a sandbag, rest, or bench, or supported in any way. I'm talking about the SHOOTER shooting 16 MOA in a defensive scenario. "Low ready, up, two shots"...you know the drill. Right?

No I can't. But that's not rifle or ammo related.

Nor did I ever imply that it was.