The BEST Carry Handgun and Condition.....

[EJSG19]

Not to derail this epic derailment, but anybody talk about the emotional component of choosing and keeping/refusing to let go of a particular carry gun? I'll be the first to admit that I KNOW there are more accurate, more reliable, more popular, higher capacity, more concealable handguns with better service departments and track records than my chosen tool (Taurus MilPro series). I keep it (shoot IPSC, carry, practice with, brag about) because I like it. I likely shoot my 1911 better than my 145.

I think that is at least 80% of the reason why most (average joe folks, who aren't necessarily gun enthusiasts) people carry what they carry.

Either they heard from somebody else that XXXX gun is the best, or they like it's reputation, or whatever.

I think emotion or percieved quality plays a bigger role to these folks, than does their actual testing and training with that weapon. Besides, one man's definition of testing and training is 20 rounds, and shooting twice a year. Another man's definition is 1000 rounds or more per week, shooting daily. So when somebody says "yeah I test it thoroughly and train with it" that doesn't really mean anything.

[hammAR]

At what point are they taught to see the front sight.................

IF you had paid attention the first time I wouldn't have to repeat this, but here is once again how you do it...............




and the question is still "What is a front sight........"


.

[bensdad]

and the question is still "What is a front sight........"

A sternum?

[westberg]

Hold up there Cowboy , that's the point I'm trying to make. Sighted shooting or aligning the sights has been said to be more difficult to teach or master so the reason for the Zipper, during draw and recoil it take practice to watch for the front sight.

So my question was in teaching the Zipper why are they saying watch for the front sight, the two don't comput.

[Pat Cannon]

Not to derail this epic derailment, but anybody talk about the emotional component of choosing and keeping/refusing to let go of a particular carry gun?

What?? Perhaps others may have such illogical thought processes, but my carry gun choice is totally rational. It is pure coincidence that my carry gun was the shiniest one on the shelf at Frontiersman.

Which reminds me, why is this thread still going after I have already told everyone the answer?

[DS99]

Hold up there Cowboy , that's the point I'm trying to make. Sighted shooting or aligning the sights has been said to be more difficult to teach or master so the reason for the Zipper, during draw and recoil it take practice to watch for the front sight.

So my question was in teaching the Zipper why are they saying watch for the front sight, the two don't comput.

Let me qualify this with a disclaimer that I'm neither a zipper expert nor an Applegate expert. However, I have read a couple of his books and done some studying on his shooting system. My limited understanding is that the "zipper" was for use during "instinctive" shooting rather than aimed fire, although Applegate did teach using eye/hand coordination with some form of visual reference (what we might call flash front sight today). His shooting system was based on close range combat and was largely one handed shooting from either the hip (close contact) or what we might call the "retention" position today.

The "zipper" is also based on a method of presentation where the muzzle is brought up with the arm fully extended from the traditional "low ready" so that it passes the pelvis and lower thoracic cavity enroute to the upper thoracic cavity and cranial cavity.

I think that it's noteworthy that this particular method of presentation has proven over time to be less than optimal in both gunfights and competition (ie lots of rounds pumped into the ground, particularly in real shootings).

It's also noteworthy that Applegate's primary test beds were a third world police force and OSS operatives, all of whom were operating under pretty significant time and resource restraints at the time of the training. (In other words, train 'em with the little that you've got and then get 'em out the door/on the street).

If I've messed up any facts here, somebody please correct me or point out some other info.

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

[farmerj]

My grandma broke her pelvis. She could still use the phone and put on clothes. If a BG gets shot in the pelvis, can he/she still shoot their gun?

I really doubt a broken pelvis and a 124gr JHP golden sabre to the pelvis are going to result in the same reaction.

[DS99]

Not to derail this epic derailment, but anybody talk about the emotional component of choosing and keeping/refusing to let go of a particular carry gun? I'll be the first to admit that I KNOW there are more accurate, more reliable, more popular, higher capacity, more concealable handguns with better service departments and track records than my chosen tool (Taurus MilPro series). I keep it (shoot IPSC, carry, practice with, brag about) because I like it. I likely shoot my 1911 better than my 145.

I think that is at least 80% of the reason why most (average joe folks, who aren't necessarily gun enthusiasts) people carry what they carry.

Either they heard from somebody else that XXXX gun is the best, or they like it's reputation, or whatever.

I think emotion or percieved quality plays a bigger role to these folks, than does their actual testing and training with that weapon. Besides, one man's definition of testing and training is 20 rounds, and shooting twice a year. Another man's definition is 1000 rounds or more per week, shooting daily. So when somebody says "yeah I test it thoroughly and train with it" that doesn't really mean anything.

I could be wrong, but my observations have been that the non-enthusiast more often than not carries something based upon the recommendation of somebody whom they trust or deem to be an "expert". This brings the discussion back to my point of instructors and sales folks sometimes leading people to a weapon that's really not a good choice for them by failing to provide real, operationally sound advice based on the capabilities/limitations of the weapon and needs of the customer/student; instead guiding the student to make a decision based on their "comfort level" with something about which they know nothing and around which they are inherently uncomfortable to begin with.

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

[Paul]

My grandma broke her pelvis. She could still use the phone and put on clothes. If a BG gets shot in the pelvis, can he/she still shoot their gun?

I really doubt a broken pelvis and a 124gr JHP golden sabre to the pelvis are going to result in the same reaction.

Shooting someone in the pelvis could possibly immobilize them and stop them from chasing after you, but it wouldn't stop them from using their gun.

[DS99]

My grandma broke her pelvis. She could still use the phone and put on clothes. If a BG gets shot in the pelvis, can he/she still shoot their gun?

I really doubt a broken pelvis and a 124gr JHP golden sabre to the pelvis are going to result in the same reaction.

It's all based on the amout of fight in the person. Some people don't even know they've been shot and it's fairly common for a shooting victim to feel no pain at all because of the shock and adrenaline. I know of a former co-worker who took six 7.62 rounds and stayed in the fight for a while longer (and survived to come back to the field). If you've never seen "Fire Fight" or read an after action of the Platt and Maddox/FBI shootout in Miami, it's a very interesting read. It really makes you think about terminal ballistics and how poorly bullets really can work sometimes.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

[farmerj]

Yes, I read that when I was on active duty with US Customs.

It comes back to "attitude" and willingness to not quit when it comes to any given situation. Regardless of what you are doing. DHG use or otherwise. Even a MVA will shut some people down.

[1911fan]

Hold up there Cowboy , that's the point I'm trying to make. Sighted shooting or aligning the sights has been said to be more difficult to teach or master so the reason for the Zipper, during draw and recoil it take practice to watch for the front sight.

So my question was in teaching the Zipper why are they saying watch for the front sight, the two don't comput.

Let me qualify this with a disclaimer that I'm neither a zipper expert nor an Applegate expert. However, I have read a couple of his books and done some studying on his shooting system. My limited understanding is that the "zipper" was for use during "instinctive" shooting rather than aimed fire, although Applegate did teach using eye/hand coordination with some form of visual reference (what we might call flash front sight today). His shooting system was based on close range combat and was largely one handed shooting from either the hip (close contact) or what we might call the "retention" position today.

The "zipper" is also based on a method of presentation where the muzzle is brought up with the arm fully extended from the traditional "low ready" so that it passes the pelvis and lower thoracic cavity enroute to the upper thoracic cavity and cranial cavity.

I think that it's noteworthy that this particular method of presentation has proven over time to be less than optimal in both gunfights and competition (ie lots of rounds pumped into the ground, particularly in real shootings).

It's also noteworthy that Applegate's primary test beds were a third world police force and OSS operatives, all of whom were operating under pretty significant time and resource restraints at the time of the training. (In other words, train 'em with the little that you've got and then get 'em out the door/on the street).

If I've messed up any facts here, somebody please correct me or point out some other info.

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

Pretty much on the nose as far the situations, The people he was teaching were people going to overseas postings where there was a fair chance of trouble, While they had the Marines as primary, they were teaching mostly DoS people to defend themselves incase the place was overrun. The concept as he taught it, was (using the word she as he particularly was involved in teaching women) the woman is caught in an attack, she has a sidearm, and is either hunkering down or trying to leave to find a safe place. she keeps the weapon down low, perhaps even half hidden behind her leg. If confronted, she brings the weapon, as soon as her eyes detect the muzzle/front sight/loud end passing anything solid she was to shoot, and keep shooting until he fell, or she no longer seeing him behind the gun. In no way was he teaching gunfighting 401, the post grad course, he was teaching staff people how to hopefully survive long enough to escape a Tehran or Kenyan type attack on an embassy.

Now translate that to 96 % of the people who need a firearm for defense, but who are not into the gun culture as we are. Person is threatened with an attacker, the gun comes out, and as soon as there is bad guy in front of the muzzle, start shooting. Don't stop till he's no longer in front of the muzzle. Pretty simple really

[cobb]

Some people don't even know they've been shot and it's fairly common for a shooting victim to feel no pain at all because of the shock and adrenaline.

Or not know because their actions are focused on something else.

A hunting friend of mine was turning to shoot at 2 deer that were running at him. While turning he fell to the ground and thought himself that he had tripped. He started to stand and again fell to the ground. Then looking down at his legs, he discovered that he had been shot, took a soft nose 150 or 165 grain 308 bullet to his leg below the knee. Don't remember the exact inches, but lost 5-6 inches of bone and would not let them amputate his leg.

So it does happen, people can be shot and not even realize they have been shot

[farmerj]

Some people don't even know they've been shot and it's fairly common for a shooting victim to feel no pain at all because of the shock and adrenaline.

Or not know because their actions are focused on something else.

A hunting friend of mine was turning to shoot at 2 deer that were running at him. While turning he fell to the ground and thought himself that he had tripped. He started to stand and again fell to the ground. Then looking down at his legs, he discovered that he had been shot, took a soft nose 150 or 165 grain 308 bullet to his leg below the knee. Don't remember the exact inches, but lost 5-6 inches of bone and would not let them amputate his leg.

So it does happen, people can be shot and not even realize they have been shot

And it would not have mattered had it been the leg, arm or chest. A hit is a hit.

[Holland&Holland]

Ok, here is the RIGHT answer to this question (both parts). LOADED