The 9 versus 40 or 45

[EJSG19]

I think if you are used to a 3'' group with whatever you shoot, you might be lucky if you can count on a 40'' group when it really counts and your body barely responds to your directions.

.............you are trainable............

Lord knows I need it.

3'' under no stress and 40'' under stress would probably be a pretty good day for me.

[Heffay]

I watched El Dorado this weekend. They solved the whole "aiming" issue pretty effectively there.

"Did you shoot him or not?"

"Well, I shot the sign, which fell and hit him!"

[tazdevil]

I think if you are used to a 3'' group with whatever you shoot, you might be lucky if you can count on a 40'' group when it really counts and your body barely responds to your directions.

.............you are trainable............

Lord knows I need it.

3'' under no stress and 40'' under stress would probably be a pretty good day for me.

There exists one of the major issues to gun owners. How can we reliably test our skills for such a situation should the need arise? You can simulate all you like, however, in the back of your head, you still know this is simulation only, and no one's shooting back at you or trying to take your family hostage etc. I suppose a scenario could be set up, and the gun carriers tested in a situation that seems real but isn't, something like this:

They are going to a cabin or a meeting and upon entrance, their guns have to be relinquished for a "safety check" (problem 1, most of us wouldn't do that easily, understandably so); then, at some point during the meeting or campout look a likes of their guns are returned, loaded with blanks instead of live ammo and laser recognition system (not visible, just indicates where rounds were fired); an assailant bursts in either firing or attempting to take family hostage etc. Immediately after, everyone's informed this was a test, and then the results are displayed to show how well you can do in what you thought was a real situation, not a simulated exercise. In the right setting, it would be informative, if not entertaining.

[Pinnacle]

Whatever you can do with a 45, i can do faster with a 9mm (that is just me talking)

Stopping power, and other such nonsense is just that, nonsense. Shot placement and shots on target are all that matter. A couple of good solid hits with a 22 beat a marginal hit with a 45.

You want stopping power, get a rifle, or better a shotgun. A 9mm is a fine defensive caliber, remembering pistols are marginal at best no matter the caliber. Many holes are better than one. Penetration counts, 2 holes bleed better than one, and 4 holes beat 2.

CNS SHOTS ARE NEAR IMPOSSIBLE, HEADSHOTS ARE NEAR IMPOSSIBLE, YOU ARE COUNTING ON HYPOVOLEMIC SHOCK, MAKE HOLES, AND FAST...... Use the gun that you shoot the best, most accurately, and fastest, and can operate under stress.

better yet, don't get into a gunfight.

[Heffay]

Stopping power doesn't matter one bit, since odds are you're going to unload the full mag and not hit anything you were trying to aim at anyway. Stress does really wacky things to your body. That is why you need to carry a gun that will make them crap their pants and run away when it goes off, not one that makes them walk up to you and stick a knife in your chest.

[Quasar]

For some people adrenaline works for them. Its important not to "over-underestimate" yourself as well. Have confidence and "trust your instincts Luke". For most of us the closest we get to this state is when your driving. I've avoided potentially very nasty collisions thanks to adrenaline, reacting before my mind fully understood what was happening.

With this old debate the point is to understand the limitations of the handgun caliber especially these main three. In Europe the 32 is still considered an adequate round and indeed does work.

[carver952]

odds are you're going to unload the full mag and not hit anything you were trying to aim at anyway.
Stress does really wacky things to your body.

If I have to show or use the gun:
1. Will I stop the bad guy (s) ? Its ok if they run away, anything more than 2-3 shots each could be considered excessive (if they go down)
2. good point made above about adrenaline and stress: 3" group in a good day, 9" group during realistic training,
18" group center of mass during adrenaline dump may still be good enough to hit the bad guy.

[plblark]

1. Will I stop the bad guy (s) ? Its ok if they run away, anything more than 2-3 shots each could be considered excessive.

Spin that the other way. If it takes 2-3 shots and doesn't stop the threat, don't just stop because you think some court somewhere may think it's excessive...

[hammAR]

1. Will I stop the bad guy (s) ? Its ok if they run away, anything more than 2-3 shots each could be considered excessive.

Spin that the other way. If it takes 2-3 shots and doesn't stop the threat, don't just stop because you think some court somewhere may think it's excessive...

....or because that is the way that you train.................

[plblark]

Throw a dark shirt on your target and see if you can even SPOT your hits..... (Easier with a .45 due to size and a Mosin due to flaming holes )

[plink]

The British's rifles were a little over .45 when they fought the Zulus. Some of the Zulu's came to the fight doped up to the teeth and there were some reports of the bullets not stopping the angry man with the spear. And these were rifle rounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry

Screw conceal and carry. Get a medicinal PCP permit and a large stabbing instrument.

[gyrfalcon]

... bullets not stopping the angry man with the spear. And these were rifle rounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry...

Not to disagree with history, but if you can't stop someone with a Martini-Henry rifle shooting a 400gr to 480gr bullet at 1300+fps you're doing something wrong. (Like missing?)

[plink]

... bullets not stopping the angry man with the spear. And these were rifle rounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry...

Not to disagree with history, but if you can't stop someone with a Martini-Henry rifle shooting a 400gr to 480gr bullet at 1300+fps you're doing something wrong. (Like missing?)

I saw a show on the history channel about it a few years back. They gave a guy some of the stuff the Zulus were on (as best as they could recreate it) and he did get freakishly strong.

And no, I don't remember them doing a rifle round test on him, you only get that if you buy the DVD and watch the extras.

[1911fan]

... bullets not stopping the angry man with the spear. And these were rifle rounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry...

Not to disagree with history, but if you can't stop someone with a Martini-Henry rifle shooting a 400gr to 480gr bullet at 1300+fps you're doing something wrong. (Like missing?)

There have been many cases of the drug enforced man doing all sorts of things that defy logic. Logic says when you have a hole in your person you were not born with, that you should become greatly concerned and seek a course of action which would remedy such a thing. The drug infusePd person often takes a contrary course of actions and seeks to kill that which has hurt him to the point of ignoring his own suffering. This can allow the body to function at a time when the brain should be seeking other activities.

[gyrfalcon]

...Logic says when you have a hole in your person you were not born with, that you should become greatly concerned and seek a course of action which would remedy such a thing...

Oh I understand that... I was talking more about the logic of not having certain vital organs in you, a severed spine, large parts of your torso, or appendages like arms/legs missing. The Martini-Henry should be able to take down large game and even zombies with ease considering how massive and powerful the round is.