agents choose to carry personal weapons instead of Kimber

[1911fan]

Not sure why Seismic Sam got all bent out of shape with my comments!!!

HammAR, I understand you have a lot of experience with guns and using them, but to say that people are foolish for using a 3" 1911 begs the question, why? Not all of them are unreliable. And it's not only the Kimber 1911 that experience problems. It was mentioned on this thread already that other makes have experienced issues also. It's not only the 3", but I have heard of plenty of guns in all lengths that have an issue of some sort. My comment was regarding the name calling and how it's not necessary.

HammAR was a Marine. I saw no references to your parentage, sexual orientation, or suggestions that you engaged in sex acts out side of your species. Therefore it wasn't name calling.


I Keeed. I Keeed.

However instead of refuting his statement you could ask him to give evidence or experiences he might have which would support his declarative judgement.

[scotts87iroc]

HammAR, I understand you have a lot of experience with guns and using them, but to say that people are foolish for using a 3" 1911 begs the question, why?

I did!

[hammAR]

The folks who own and shoot the older commercial Colt's and GI 1911s are mostly the folks who grew up with and cut their teeth on 1911s -- hence, they're the more experienced 1911 folks -- who as a rule, understand the peculiarities and maintenance issues attendent to the platform, that is if one knows the 1911.

As a relatively new concept, the tiny-45s appealed to a lot of newer shooters, newer gun-buyers or folks not generally part of the 1911 cult (as most of the 1911 aficianados out there were, and remain, totally content with full size and Commander-length models). One who purchases the gun-de-jour on a whim, because it's small and concealable, "cute" or has write-ups in this month's gun rags, is more likely to shoot it right out of the box and not know it doesn't function perfectly.

The problem is that these tiny guns are so far away from JMBs original design that it is a different gun. Captured springs, significantly shorter slide & travel time all lead to inherent reliability issues because of the fat & stubby .45ACP bullet. Sometimes, you just cannot shrink something and still expect it to work the same way.

It isn't by accident that most Colts are full-size. I have read that Colt believed that the shortest, fully-reliable length for a 1911 is 4.25" as in Commander. I have heard precious-little good about any 3" 1911, including Colt's Defender.

One will notice that there are next to no complaints about pre-1970 commercial Colt's and USGI pistols. However occasionally their owners will comment about how their older guns just kept ticking along without any functional issues. I am sure there are a large number of satisfied owners of current crop of tiny guns out there, they may not know better or have not shot enough to know better.

As for "advanced engineering,” most of the tiny guns have simply had some butt and slide length deducted from a larger gun. As a result this sub-class of 1911 clone pistols has a well-known, and well deserved, reputation for being fussy in the reliable functioning department, if you are refering to most of the stuff that's being marketed today.

But during both World War One and Two, Colt and other contractors built literally hundreds-of-thousands of 1911 and 1911A1 pistols that didn't require any tweeking, other then that done by the final assemblers. Additionally Uncle Sam didn't have to waste valuable ammunition shooting 500 or more rounds through each gun to get it to function. Up until the middle-1960's no one ever bothered to "break in" a service pistol - because it wasn't necessary too do so. No one had to have any patience with "issues," because it was very seldom there were any.

For the tiny guns, there are numerous suggestions about what magazine to use, what and where to polish this or that, and what weight recoil spring will make the difference. Meanwhile no one comes forward to explain how government contractors in the middle of a war could turn out pistols that became legendary for their reliability, and yet require none of the monkey business now considered standard and required procedure by those poor folks that continue to lay their money down for a half-finished product. I just point out that it is sad to see today's 1911 style pistol buyers spending big money to buy what in effect is a project gun that has to have more money spent on it to get it right. In past years it wasn't necessay to rebuild new guns because they worked right in the first place.

Another issue with most tiny guns is the mag is not getting the next round up into position in time and the slide is catching the extraction groove instead of the cartridge base leading to the "nose up" jam. Another is the mag is losing control of the rounds under recoil -- in this case sometimes it'll eject live rounds. If there is no FOD or other problems with the mag causing the follower to bind stronger mag springs are the only fix unless you can somehow slow down the slide, because if the bullet's nose didn't get high enough up the ramp to feed, another symptom of tiny guns.

If it requires tweeking and breaking in, it ain't a weapon - it's a toy, and a poor one at that.

I'm sure you already know this, but I would be remiss if I didn;t say: Do not carry this weapon anywhere any time, until you're 100% that it's 100%.

..and once again, there was no name calling in this post, can not say the same about the next one if one is foolish enough to push this any further.........

[Pinnacle]

Anecdotally, in the classes I have been teaching, it seems that the compact M1911s have a high malfunction rate compared to other guns, with Springfield and Kimber being the most problematic. I have not kept track of specific numbers.

Full and "Commander" size M1911s seem to work just fine.

+1

I have seen many a Kimber go down in classes that I have been involved with. Mainly Extractor Problems, and a couple of out of battery detonations from people not cleaning them and having the firing pin lock, sears that have been home gun plumbed, etc..... And some just out of teh BOX Break and Epic Fail. I have never seen a Kimber Pistol that will last for a 4-day class that I have been to - Fact... As witnessed by my own eyes. It is Sad to say ... Sorry for the hurt feelings... Just an observation.

I had a kimber, didnt think that it was worth owning becuase of the issues that I had with it, and have seen others have similar issues, and seemingly none of my glocks, Sigs, nor my Smiths have any such problems.

Just Sayin.... Thats all....

Just Saying...

[rugersol]

Just Sayin.... Thats all....

Just Saying...

Well said!

Since hammAR's already said I don't know **** 'bout a 1911, I see no more harm in commenting further ...

With regard to the 3in 1911's, I own 3 ... two run good (one's a 3.5in) ... one don't (an Armscor, so that's not a great start ... I'll look into it further, when time permits) ... I don't wanna say that what hammAR's said, regarding the shorter captured springs 'n what-not ain't the #1 issue ... I really couldn't say. However, it's been my experience, with OTHER types of automatic pistols, offered in various bbl-lengths, that without something closer to a G.I. Joe "Kung Fu" grip, malfunctions, due to the slide not cycling, as designed, are far more prevalent, as the bbl gets shorter (and/or ammo gets more powerful ... like +P JHP vs. FMJ or IPSC-"Major"). I can't help but wonder if some of that don't come into play?

If hammAR's contending that a 5in steel-frame 1911 is more "reliable" than purdy much any other configuration, to any extent that affords something closer to a G.I. Joe "Kung Fu" grip, and/or the slide cycling, as designed, then I can't help but agree. Moreover, I'll suggest that, along these lines, for overall performance (not the least of which, lethal hits on a "bad guy" vs. lethal hits on the soccer mom and/or her children, walking through the background another 30ft or so), a steel-framed 4.25in 1911 might be better than an aluminum-framed one (yes, I carry an aluminum-frame one ... YMMV ... worth noting however, I carry a 4.25in, and not one of my 3in ... not because the 4.25in is more reliable ... but because it makes me more reliable ... and another 4oz really ain't **** ... and Bruce Nelson designed a holster that makes the extra 1.25in, and the grip, also irrelevant).

I'll only add, I won't carry or compete with any single-stack mag that ain't a Wilson Combat.

[hammAR]

Since hammAR's already said I don't know **** 'bout a 1911...

I do not remember saying that in any serious way.....at least I didn't say that you were foolish..........

It goes without saying that the supporting mechanism for the trigger actuator is very important and at fault with a large number of performance issues and malfunctions with 1911s in general. Thus the comment "that is if one knows the 1911. "......most newer 1911 shooters do not take the time to learn the design and mechanics of their weapon, and this is especially true with 1911s normal or tiny.

If hammAR's contending that a 5in steel-frame 1911 is more "reliable"

I'm contending that this is JMBs original design and that anything else is a different gun and that you just cannot shrink something and still expect it to work the same way...........just like a cold shower.......

[rugersol]

I do not remember saying that in any serious way

Me neither

[rugersol]

It goes without saying

I ain't sayin' ... I'm just sayin'





sorry.

[plblark]

http://pwpxserver.appspot.com/pistol-training.com/archives/4384

•Folks who shoot 1911s because they shoot them well do better than folks who shoot 1911s because they think the 1911 is cool. Before class ever begins, I can usually figure out whose 1911s will run and whose won’t. The guy bragging about his 1911 will almost always (a) suck , (b) have a problem gun, or (c) both.

Read the whole thing.

[Norsesmithy]

I like what Larry Vickers had to say about the 1911. (Now, I'm paraphrasing because I read this several months ago, and don't care enough to look for it)

He says that the 1911, when used by an enthusiast who knows what he's doing or a professional who is enthusiastic about his pistoleering and is willing put up with the increased maintenance, will deliver results commensurate with then effort put into the platform.

But that its a design from an era where everything was hand fitted by a very skilled technician (even the war production guns), and that a modern mass market 1911 is no longer hand fitted. This means that a higher proportion of mass market 1911s will need attention from the factory than say a Glock or an M&P. So any 1911 purchased must be purchased with this in mind. And that the more "deviations" that occur in the design, the better and better the odds of getting a pistol that doesn't work right from the factory are.

(My own thoughts from here on out) With that in mind, one can pick a custom shop gun that did receive the individual attention from a skilled technician as the design intended (BIG MONEY), pick a foreign made gun that may be on the rougher end of the finishing scheme, but still hand assembled (generally Filipino or Chinese), or pick from a reputable manufacturer and know there is a chance they might have to send it back (or massage it themselves).

And depending on the manufacturer, that chance might be lower or higher, and the service you receive if you have to send it back will vary immensely.

[Snowgun]

So, this thread has got me wondering...especially with the glock comment

If you were to take your government 1911 of choice, get it set up like you want too....

Realistically how long would the thing last in a torture test? How would it compare against a glock? Half the glock's round count? 3/4? 1/4?

Not that I expect it to beat the glock or anything obviously, but i'm curious how long it could go...

[Ranger01]

So, this thread has got me wondering...especially with the glock comment

If you were to take your government 1911 of choice, get it set up like you want too....

Realistically how long would the thing last in a torture test? How would it compare against a glock? Half the glock's round count? 3/4? 1/4?

Not that I expect it to beat the glock or anything obviously, but i'm curious how long it could go...

Currently CutleryLover on Youtube is doing a "dry and dirty" test on his RIA 1911. He has made it past 800 rounds last I heard (a while ago) and the only problem so far has been the slide release lever is a bit loose.

First Video in the set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzqReLp4 ... ure=relmfu

There is a "results" video, but he figured out the slide release lever was being pushed slightly out when he put his finger along the frame, so the test is still going.

[goalie]

Currently CutleryLover on Youtube is doing a "dry and dirty" test on his RIA 1911. He has made it past 800 rounds last I heard (a while ago) and the only problem so far has been the slide release lever is a bit loose.

My G17 did more rounds than that in a day with zero malfunctions. Several times.

[hammAR]

Todd Jarrett 1000 rounds in ten minutes........

[rugersol]

Realistically how long would the thing last in a torture test? How would it compare against a glock? Half the glock's round count? 3/4? 1/4?

I hear what you're sayin' ... that's fine ... but let me offer an analogy ...

Not to offend anyone, but let's say a Chevy Crapalier would go 100,000mi with no oil changes or other maintenance.

And let's say a Chevy Tahoe is well-known to seize up at 10,000mi with no oil change.

I'll take the Tahoe, and change the oil, thank you!

Moreover, let's say I only ever need to drive it 10mi ... once ... ever.

More moreover, let's say I can't physically fit into the driver's seat of a Chevy Crapalier ... at which, as fine as it may be, it's simply not even an option, for me.