Police going back to 9mm?

[gyrfalcon]

My friend, who's a cop, told me those rounds make a 9mm into a .45.

What do they make a .45 into then?!

[grousemaster]

some guy at my range was going on and on about how LE's are switching back to 9mm because the the ballistics are the same, etc..

Maybe I'm not smart enough to figure this out, but how would someone benefit from moving to a 180grain bullet going about 990fps to a 147 grin bullet going even slower?

[Snowgun]

Light speed ball ammo is the ticket. Two holes leak faster than one.

Four holes where two were intended causes legal problems...

I can see what you are saying but this line of logic removes some undeniable facts about pistols and their limitations and makes what we think is legal sense but when we really really look at this issue it is readily apparent that it makes little sense in practical application.

Any and all self defense loads are capable of completely penetrating a human in 9 40 or 45. Bullets that cannot reliably penetrate 14"-16" of simulated tissue are making a marginal self defense tool even more marginal. We need to consider target and beyond for sure but remember ALL STANDARD SD LOADS ARE CAPABLE OF COMPLETE PENETRATION OF A HUMAN TARGET.

9mm tends to penetrate and work a whole lot better for many reasons. It just plain works and has been working for many years more than just about anything else. Most people cannot shoot the 40 worth snot, and many more don't shoot the 45 much better and just about everyone shoots the 9mm well.

Hits count, misses don't. 9mm is fully capable if you are. I personally can place 3 rounds from any of my 9mm's on target dater and more accurately than about 90% of shooters can place one round on target. If you think that you can overcome a volume of well aimed fire with caliber, think again.

Misses don't count

I don't understand your point. It seems that you are arguing my point that SD rounds (especially in 9mm) are preferable to Hardball. Yes, SD rounds can penetrate, but FMJ penetrates more and does less to stop attackers. Just ask the military.

In the end it's all about how many get put in the right place. I would think it makes sense to make sure that effort doesn't get wasted by having a hard ball Icepick through and hit something else. It's all about mitigation of risk.

[Snowgun]

some guy at my range was going on and on about how LE's are switching back to 9mm because the the ballistics are the same, etc..

Maybe I'm not smart enough to figure this out, but how would someone benefit from moving to a 180grain bullet going about 990fps to a 147 grin bullet going even slower?

I don't think cops use the crappy 147 g 9mm anymore, I think they use the 124 with the +P. Studies were showing that the 147 had crappy ballistics, but a sufficiently SD powered 124 with a good HP will be in the same range (albeit slightly less) as a .40 performance wise. The difference being you get more bullets and you have a better chance of hitting what you are aiming at.

However this change in the LE community is probably a numbers/political issue in reality...

[grousemaster]

some guy at my range was going on and on about how LE's are switching back to 9mm because the the ballistics are the same, etc..

Maybe I'm not smart enough to figure this out, but how would someone benefit from moving to a 180grain bullet going about 990fps to a 147 grin bullet going even slower?

I don't think cops use the crappy 147 g 9mm anymore, I think they use the 124 with the +P. Studies were showing that the 147 had crappy ballistics, but a sufficiently SD powered 124 with a good HP will be in the same range (albeit slightly less) as a .40 performance wise. The difference being you get more bullets and you have a better chance of hitting what you are aiming at.

However this change in the LE community is probably a numbers/political issue in reality...

Well, if you want to compare similar bullet weights, look at the Winchester 135 grain 40 load....which goes a whole lot faster than the 124grain +p offerings in 9mm. I just don't buy that a smaller bullet going at similar or slower speeds is an advantage....unless recoil is honestly an issue or the extra couple rounds is that important...

[grousemaster]

some guy at my range was going on and on about how LE's are switching back to 9mm because the the ballistics are the same, etc..

Maybe I'm not smart enough to figure this out, but how would someone benefit from moving to a 180grain bullet going about 990fps to a 147 grin bullet going even slower?

I don't think cops use the crappy 147 g 9mm anymore, I think they use the 124 with the +P. Studies were showing that the 147 had crappy ballistics, but a sufficiently SD powered 124 with a good HP will be in the same range (albeit slightly less) as a .40 performance wise. The difference being you get more bullets and you have a better chance of hitting what you are aiming at.

However this change in the LE community is probably a numbers/political issue in reality...

Well, if you want to compare similar bullet weights, look at the Winchester 135 grain 40 load....which goes faster than the 124grain +p offerings in 9mm. I just don't buy that a smaller bullet going at similar or slower speeds is an advantage....unless recoil is honestly an issue or the extra couple rounds is that important...unless mass x velocity no longer equals energy

[justaguy]

One thing we dont want to stray to far from is the fact that cops violate our civil rights.

[grousemaster]

One thing we dont want to stray to far from is the fact that cops violate our civil rights.

They sure can, hopefully they won't, but it happens. Anyways, I'm just trying to put forth my humble opinion that the 9mm "fanboys" who keep trying to convince everyone it's a better or equal manstopper than the larger calibers have to also argue with physics, not just 1911 fanboys

[macphisto]

grousemaster, I like your style.

[gyrfalcon]

They sure can, hopefully they won't, but it happens. Anyways, I'm just trying to put forth my humble opinion that the 9mm "fanboys" who keep trying to convince everyone it's a better or equal manstopper than the larger calibers have to also argue with physics, not just 1911 fanboys

Which is a better man stopper... .223 Remington or .45ACP?

[grousemaster]

They sure can, hopefully they won't, but it happens. Anyways, I'm just trying to put forth my humble opinion that the 9mm "fanboys" who keep trying to convince everyone it's a better or equal manstopper than the larger calibers have to also argue with physics, not just 1911 fanboys

Which is a better man stopper... .223 Remington or .45ACP?

I choose the needle going at 50,000 FPS....

Extreme velocity differences can make up for projectile weigh and b/c, yes....

[Pinnacle]

I don't understand your point. It seems that you are arguing my point that SD rounds (especially in 9mm) are preferable to Hardball. Yes, SD rounds can penetrate, but FMJ penetrates more and does less to stop attackers. Just ask the military.

In the end it's all about how many get put in the right place. I would think it makes sense to make sure that effort doesn't get wasted by having a hard ball Icepick through and hit something else. It's all about mitigation of risk.

There is risk when you leave the house in the morning. This thread is about the reason that Police are going BACK to 9mm. Here is the bottom line as I see it.

The 125gr .357 MAG @1250 FPS or so is the Gold Standard of what is falsely referred to as Stopping Power - when calculated using a scale of measure of encounters, it rates at about 96% of one shot stops. It is not that I agree with the calculation of this fact, it is that it has been and always will be the standard and well, it works. Modern 9mm more than duplicates the ballistics and there are a lot more choices in bullets and weights and configurations.

It is all about Return on Investment - 40 is a great caliber, 45 has been a great caliber for all of its life, but in the end for a lot of departments, it comes down to $$$. 9mm is cheap to shoot in comparison, easy to shoot in comparison, there are very few negatives to the 9mm when it performs as well as the old gold standard of the 357 with the right ammunition. I cant see using anything else. Speed/Power/Accuracy requirements are all met with the 9mm. When you can place 2 rounds center mass faster with a 9mm and more accurately than any other caliber, the answer is clear. For Personal use, when you have a choice, choose what you want, but I do not think that Police are "undergunned" with a 9mm in any way shape or form.

One country in particular uses the 9mm without complaint and I do a lot of work there and shoot there as well, seems that even with ball, they dont have any of the problems or complaints that we seem to have with the 9mm. They report great effect with the 9mm when shots are PLACED CORRECTLY.

Over penetration is less of an issue than most people think - while it is something to be concerned with, there are ways to deal with that as well that can be learned from good training.

[tman]

Fire and maneuver huh....

Infantry tactics in a civilian law enforcement situation....

In a word, **** yeah!

I would rather be able to fire and maneuver than stand there exposed and wait to be shot.

[grousemaster]

I don't understand your point. It seems that you are arguing my point that SD rounds (especially in 9mm) are preferable to Hardball. Yes, SD rounds can penetrate, but FMJ penetrates more and does less to stop attackers. Just ask the military.

In the end it's all about how many get put in the right place. I would think it makes sense to make sure that effort doesn't get wasted by having a hard ball Icepick through and hit something else. It's all about mitigation of risk.

There is risk when you leave the house in the morning. This thread is about the reason that Police are going BACK to 9mm. Here is the bottom line as I see it.

The 125gr .357 MAG @1250 FPS or so is the Gold Standard of what is falsely referred to as Stopping Power - when calculated using a scale of measure of encounters, it rates at about 96% of one shot stops. It is not that I agree with the calculation of this fact, it is that it has been and always will be the standard and well, it works. Modern 9mm more than duplicates the ballistics and there are a lot more choices in bullets and weights and configurations.

It is all about Return on Investment - 40 is a great caliber, 45 has been a great caliber for all of its life, but in the end for a lot of departments, it comes down to $$$. 9mm is cheap to shoot in comparison, easy to shoot in comparison, there are very few negatives to the 9mm when it performs as well as the old gold standard of the 357 with the right ammunition. I cant see using anything else. Speed/Power/Accuracy requirements are all met with the 9mm. When you can place 2 rounds center mass faster with a 9mm and more accurately than any other caliber, the answer is clear. For Personal use, when you have a choice, choose what you want, but I do not think that Police are "undergunned" with a 9mm in any way shape or form.

One country in particular uses the 9mm without complaint and I do a lot of work there and shoot there as well, seems that even with ball, they dont have any of the problems or complaints that we seem to have with the 9mm. They report great effect with the 9mm when shots are PLACED CORRECTLY.

Over penetration is less of an issue than most people think - while it is something to be concerned with, there are ways to deal with that as well that can be learned from good training.

Maybe this means a whole lot of .40 cal handguns will be available as LE trade ins? That wouldn't be so bad; )

Does the country that you went to which uses the 9mm have criminals armed the way we do? Do they have similar violent crime statistics/police shootings? I know that some countries still use the .380 as a LE round....may work for them but I sure wouldn't want to carry one as a cop in the good 'ole USA.

[Pinnacle]

I would not at all mind Carrying a 380 in the appropriate platform - nothing beats a lot of holes fast that are well placed and agian using the appropriate ammunition (BALL)

The Particular country that I have occasion to visit is Israel, where the threats well exceed what we normally see here on a regular basis; facing down long guns, or well larger is the norm, not the exception.

Keep in mind any weapon in the hands of a criminal with the intent to do GBH or commit Murder is exceedingly dangerous, if the decision to use deadly force is made, the opponents weapon makes little difference, and the outcome needs to be the same regardless.

Stop the threat.