Police going back to 9mm?

[Heffay]

Just shoot them in the eyeball.

[tman]

Just shoot them in the eyeball.

Hell, in that case, just give me a .22, and I'm good-to-go!

[grousemaster]

I would not at all mind Carrying a 380 in the appropriate platform - nothing beats a lot of holes fast that are well placed and agian using the appropriate ammunition (BALL)

The Particular country that I have occasion to visit is Israel, where the threats well exceed what we normally see here on a regular basis; facing down long guns, or well larger is the norm, not the exception.

Keep in mind any weapon in the hands of a criminal with the intent to do GBH or commit Murder is exceedingly dangerous, if the decision to use deadly force is made, the opponents weapon makes little difference, and the outcome needs to be the same regardless.

Stop the threat.

Yep! Israel sure is a place where you better be well armed....I thought you were going to say Canada or something

Why use FMJ in a .380? Wouldn't that mean that even less energy would be distributed on the BG?

[jdege]

Law enforcement style shooting is different. They have specialized teams for various situations. Without going into all the details, I will mention this. They need higher capacity not because many are undertrained, but they usually provide cover fire which allows teams to advance or retreat. This is one of the big reasons why capacity is important to law enforcement.

For the police to find themselves in a position where they have to provide covering fire to maneuver teams is a clear indication that they've done something seriously wrong.

1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

[farmerj]

Fire and maneuver huh....

Infantry tactics in a civilian law enforcement situation....

In a word, **** yeah!

I would rather be able to fire and maneuver than stand there exposed and wait to be shot.

What the **** is a civilian situation doing that it requires that.

Gordon Kahl is the last I can think of around this part of the country to justify that thinking

[Paul]

Stop hating and have a drink of reality. It's not the norm, but its happened numerous times in civilian law enforcement.

[farmerj]

Stop hating and have a drink of reality. It's not the norm, but its happened numerous times in civilian law enforcement.

No knock warrants are not the norm? That use squads of cops outfitted like an infantry squad to serve a misdemeanor warrant?

Damn straight I will raise a stink.

Because it IS becoming the norm.

[Paul]

Help me keep up rancher... Where did this thread turn into a discussion about no knock warrants? I have only been skimming the thread.

So what happens when we have a north Hollywood style shootout? It has happened here before on a smaller scale.

Are we supposed to just standby and call in the national guard? That seems like a reasonable plan.

Look at the big picture and not your personal problems and biases towards law enforcement. Just because they have a rifle available in the squad doesn't mean they are going to start kicking in doors and **** with you.

I know a lot of guys who were cops back in the 60's with six shot revolvers, and surprisingly they ruled with more of an iron fist than any cop these days.

[jdege]

Are we supposed to just standby and call in the national guard?

No, you're supposed to deputize the (armed) civilians in the area.

[justaguy]

Help me keep up rancher... Where did this thread turn into a discussion into no knock warrants? I have only been skimming the thread.

So what happens when we have a north Hollywood style shootout? It has happened here before on a smaller scale.

Are we supposed to just standby and call in the national guard? That seems like a reasonable plan.

Look at the big picture and not your personal problems and biases towards law enforcement. Just because they have a rifle available in the squad doesn't mean they are going to start kicking in doors and ******* with you.

I know a lot of guys who were cops back in the 60's with six shot revolvers, and surprisingly they ruled with more of an iron fist than any cop these days.

Typical. Of course you want military firepower it just makes your job easier. I just wish you job wasn't no knock warrants, SWAT, and violating peoples Civil Rights. Cops **** with people and dont try to argue that they dont.

[Paul]

Are we supposed to just standby and call in the national guard?

No, you're supposed to deputize the (armed) civilians in the area.

So you're saying that the cops shouldn't carry any long guns, and instead should call for any random local person to come and do some shooting when shooting needs to be done?

[farmerj]

So what justification was there for MPD to send out 3 Man patrols in N MPLS after the tornado?

Other than not having grenaded, armed as an infantry fire team?

[Paul]

Why can't you answer a question directly? Or don't you have an opinion other than hating cops?

[farmerj]

Why can't you answer a question directly? Or don't you have an opinion other than hating cops?

Pot, kettle.


Kettle, pot

[Pinnacle]

Hey if there is any one single thing in a gunfight that you want less of, that precise thing is NOT ammunition. I would always want to have a lot of ammunition in reserve.

I dont know where you get your ammunition, but if you can without a shadow of a doubt prove to me that ANY bullet(s) Placed Center Mass causing a mortal wound is more effective than another similarly dispersed and placed grouping of shots from a "superior" caliber- especially with a handgun, sign me up.....

Therefore, at least I can deduce (justify in my own mind) that any caliber will do the job, using the bullets that it was DESIGNED to shoot, if you do what you are supposed to do.

380's / 32's and other similar autopistols are specifically designed to shoot reliably with one bullet profile - BALL. Sorry to say that all and I mean all of the 1911's that I have had in my hand never fed Uber Hollow Point defensive ammunition worth a damn (save the Smith and Wesson 4506 may the good lord above have mercy on its departed soul and forgive me for selling her down the river Stix) However, those same guns shot BALL 100% reliably, accurately and with enough power to get just about any job done that needed doin.

I feel the same way about the 9mm - but remember most MODERN autopistols were borne from the days of the Wondernine where there was one bullet that you needed to feed reliably - the 115gr. Winchester Silvertip - that was THE round in its day made a 9mm into a 38+P , not too far a stretch if you really think about it with a big gas tank. As it turns out - if you can eat the silvertip, you can eat anything else as well in the JHP Family. If you have to shoot Hollow points, I would think that a 9mm is a good choice, regardless of the effectiveness of any bullet design.

The new 9mm's offer reliability, and plenty of accuracy, and at a level of recoil that just about anyone can handle. The 135gr 40 S&W load is really a lot mroe than most people can handle and shoot well. I am an experienced shooter and I DONT love the 135 gr 40 loadings, I have a tough time with them. I prefer the 180's, they shoot a lot better for me than the lighter choices, and I like penetration, with all things in life, penetration is key.

With a handgun, if you cant place your shots well, and get to the good stuff when you place your shots, you cant expedite the cessation of hostilities. Remember guys - Handguns rely on Hypovolemic shock to work well, and two holes bleed a heck of a lot better than one. Your chances of purposefully placing CNS Shots are remote, and their relibility in question.

Handguns are for soft animals, in the soft parts to work - Rifles on the other hand, are a whole different matter.