Police going back to 9mm?

[Paul]

Why can't you answer a question directly? Or don't you have an opinion other than hating cops?

Pot, kettle.


Kettle, pot

Solid.

[justaguy]

Are we supposed to just standby and call in the national guard?

No, you're supposed to deputize the (armed) civilians in the area.

So you're saying that the cops shouldn't carry any long guns, and instead should call for any random local person to come and do some shooting when shooting needs to be done?

Why can't you answer a question directly? Or don't you have an opinion other than hating cops?

You asked jdege a question not Farmer. Try to keep up.

[Paul]

No... He quoted my question to farmer. Try to keep up.

[Pinnacle]

So what justification was there for MPD to send out 3 Man patrols in N MPLS after the tornado?

Other than not having grenaded, armed as an infantry fire team?

This is another topic for another place on the board. If you want to go here, I am sure that there are people that would gladly at least help to foster a constructive discussion about how that was OK, and others that may not be as constructive stating that this was "Overboard" Lets take this somewhere Else, I will even assist in starting the discussion.

GUYS I DO RESPECT YOUR OPINIONS AND YOUR DISCUSSIONS, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DO VALUE GOOD INFORMATION HERE AND DO ASK QUESTIONS THAT ARE ACTUALLY THOUGHT PROVOKING AND NOT JUST A PISSING CONTEST.....

[justaguy]

No... He quoted my question to farmer. Try to keep up.

No, he didn't.

[Paul]

No... He quoted my question to farmer. Try to keep up.

No, he didn't.

Stop being an idiot just because you can.

[justaguy]

No... He quoted my question to farmer. Try to keep up.

No, he didn't.

Stop being an idiot just because you can.

Stop with personal attacks just because you can.

[monschman]

**** the police

[farmerj]

So what justification was there for MPD to send out 3 Man patrols in N MPLS after the tornado?

Other than not having grenaded, armed as an infantry fire team?

This is another topic for another place on the board. If you want to go here, I am sure that there are people that would gladly at least help to foster a constructive discussion about how that was OK, and others that may not be as constructive stating that this was "Overboard" Lets take this somewhere Else, I will even assist in starting the discussion.

GUYS I DO RESPECT YOUR OPINIONS AND YOUR DISCUSSIONS, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DO VALUE GOOD INFORMATION HERE AND DO ASK QUESTIONS THAT ARE ACTUALLY THOUGHT PROVOKING AND NOT JUST A PISSING CONTEST.....

Pinnacle,

Understood. But the position came from the fact it was stated that agencies are making the switch to 9mm to allow for extra capacity to allow for fire and maneuver.

It has spiraled from there.

As was stated, if police need to fire and maneuver, the situation is long gone south to a point that is seriously SNAFUBAR. And yes, North Hollywood and Gordon Kahl are both examples of that. The Omaha Mall shooter is another.

I will submit, these ARE legitimate and reasonable uses of highly equipped officers.

However, the Danzinger Bridge incident is an excellent example of civil situations that officers responded entirely overboard.

Should officers have access to the equipment? Hell yes. 6 officers can respond with individual cars from separate directions a hell of a lot quicker than assembling a team, gathering equipment and responding from a central point.

But to say they need this for fire and maneuver purposes is ********. And the more they try to justify it and stuff it down peoples throats makes it that more disgusting.

Keeping it on topic, for the bean counters to come in and say its due to budgetary constraints. I'd be seriously agreeing with them. Heck, I'd even recommend that they start to equip officers with 9mm pistol AND a 9mm carbine.

I would ask, if I remember correctly, you have commercial access to the information. What IS the capability of the 9mm in a CARBINE platform and what ballistic performance does it have against body armor. Last I looked, it was rather impressive in that it made me step back and look at the data a little harder.

Part of the reason I am sold on the 9mm as a defensive cartridge. Now take a Beretta CX4 carbine and a Beretta M9 or 92FS platform, you can carry one ammo and one style magazine. Dual purpose for a carbine or pistol use. Cut the equipment requirement in half, cut the ammo requirement in half.

Serious things to consider in todays recession and communities and budget constraints. $2000 to outfit an officer or $3000 to outfit an officer? Hmmm, easy decision to make and based not only off budget reasons, but also reasonable performance reasons as well.

[Terry]

Are we supposed to just standby and call in the national guard?

No, you're supposed to deputize the (armed) civilians in the area.

That seems real safe and logical, because all those armed civilians have the training and experience to respond accordingly...

[Terry]

To answer the question...

Police going to 9mm...

1. Officers have more confidence in a weapon they can handle more effectively and place rounds on target. It's not the size of the rounds, its the placement that is what is more important.

2. With M&P and the gen 4 glocks, they are able to accommodate a wide variety of officers and fit the.gun to their hand.

Good guesses though... can this be put to rest now?

[Pinnacle]

Farmer -

I totally agree with your last post. If ANY situation presents itself, a Police officer should have the tools to do the job, and remember, I said "If there is anything that you want less of in a gunfight, it isnt ammunition" REMEMBER same team sort of.

Ammunition capacity to me means that they actually have the AMMUNITION to do whatever the heck you want to call it, for watever reason it has to be done.

As far as the 9mm Carbine goes, it is an NIJ3A Type Classified Threat under the old 04 standard - it still applies that this is a NASTY round to deal with and while a vest that does not meet NIJ3A MAY stop the round, the back-face is going to do a lot of damage. You are pushing a well constructed, high Sectional Density Bullet at a very high rate of speed, and remember I like the 9mm because in BALL - the bullets are tougher than Woodpecker Lips and penetrate like hell.

I remember there was one comment that I was refering to - that is OVERPENETRATION is going to put you in a legal pickle, while that MAY be somewhat plausible, and somewhat logical - well sort of, I wanted to present some of what I feel are the undeniable facts of pistol shooting for self defense.

The premise of the post that I was commenting on is that a 40 or 45 will not overpenetrate, well, as we have seen, and know, all SD Cals can do this, and some cannot even treach the vitals, and some are just too darned hard to hit with for some shooters in LE. Remember not all cops are IDPA Shooters Ranked Grand Master, however good and Idea I think that it is, I dont think that it will ever happen.

It is just like anything else, skill is what counts, ammunition quantity might count, and any caliber will serve you well, if you do what you are supposed to do.

There is no magic bullet, but if you can actually shoot a 9mm, beats a 40 you cant hit crap with, and plan on all SD Rounds of "Major" status (9mm, 40, 45) going through the target, and well beyond.

The 9mm is easy to shoot, easy on the budget for training, carries a lot of ammunition, fits a broad range of people, and is suitable enough for the purpose.

[Pinnacle]

That seems real safe and logical, because all those armed civilians have the training and experience to respond accordingly...

Only on THIS interweb....... Get it straight mister.

[timwarner]

Wow, talk about a thread gone horribly wrong.

I'd hate cops, but I really just about hate everyone that I don't hate. Some are doctors, nurses, firefighters, engineers, I really hate that crazy guy that works early mornings at the gas station by my house. The night shift lead setup guy pisses me off on an almost daily basis, and my Quality Inspector and I have a hate-hate relationship. Not every cop is a gun toting, bullet proof vest wearing, para-military abuser and oppressor of your rights.
Not to say I wouldn't bust a few heads if I were in their shoes. Everyone you know could be a criminal and violate your rights, who knows, maybe your cat is lookin to mug you too.

Pretty much everyone at work is hated, they hate me too, we show it on a daily basis.
Do I **** with the people under me? yep. And they do it to the people under them, etc.
If we didn't abuse each other, we'd wonder why someone hated us.

[farmerj]

Farmer -
As far as the 9mm Carbine goes, it is an NIJ3A Type Classified Threat under the old 04 standard - it still applies that this is a NASTY round to deal with and while a vest that does not meet NIJ3A MAY stop the round, the back-face is going to do a lot of damage. You are pushing a well constructed, high Sectional Density Bullet at a very high rate of speed, and remember I like the 9mm because in BALL - the bullets are tougher than Woodpecker Lips and penetrate like hell.

I know this will be "another drift". But I think the definition is worth the risk.


Can you explain that in layman's terms. I follow it somewhat only because I researched in about 9 years ago. When I first learned what a 9mm carbine was capable of.

What type of body armor is NIJ3A?