Laser sights

[Don L]

In a class I was in at Blackwater, we spent part of a day in a dark "shoot house" exploring the "sights vs laser" debate (which, IMHO goes along with 9MM/.40, semi-auto/revolver, etc.). Two things we discovered: Shooters would move their focus from the target, to the laser beam , and then their eyes would follow the laser beam to the target, breaking the total focus I would want on the target.

When shooting force on force "sims", we found out two things: With a moving, human target, the shooter would still focus their attention on the beam, instead of the threat, and the moving, "screaming at you threat" didn't even notice that the beam was on them. (And think about keeping a beam on a moving target-at least in my experience, I was watching where the beam was pointed, more than on the moving target.)

Another observation: During a recent day at the range, two bays down from me a guy was teaching his girlfriend how to shoot, using a Glock 19, with a laser. All the beam did was confuse her, as it seemed to be one more thing she had to look for. I used this as a "teachable moment", and got her using a G19, without the laser, then her boyfriends' gun. In this instance, sights were easier for her.

In any of the schools I've been to thru the years, no instructor, or staff person I've had the privilige to work with has had a laser equipped gun. The one comment that I remember about all of this that stands out came from Clint Smith at TR, when during a break, the class was having the "caliber-laser-type of gun" discussion. Clint said, "Whatever system you choose is up to you. Chances are that the rest of us won't be there when you really need it. Remember that your life could depend on your choice".

One possible test could be for someone to use a laser in a class (like mine, or similar), getting away from a "controlled environment", then report back.

Again, this is all just my humble opinion.

Don

[cobb]

In a class I was in at Blackwater, we spent part of a day in a dark "shoot house" exploring the "sights vs laser" debate (which, IMHO goes along with 9MM/.40, semi-auto/revolver, etc.). Two things we discovered: Shooters would move their focus from the target, to the laser beam , and then their eyes would follow the laser beam to the target, breaking the total focus I would want on the target.

When shooting force on force "sims", we found out two things: With a moving, human target, the shooter would still focus their attention on the beam, instead of the threat, and the moving, "screaming at you threat" didn't even notice that the beam was on them. (And think about keeping a beam on a moving target-at least in my experience, I was watching where the beam was pointed, more than on the moving target.)

Another observation: During a recent day at the range, two bays down from me a guy was teaching his girlfriend how to shoot, using a Glock 19, with a laser. All the beam did was confuse her, as it seemed to be one more thing she had to look for. I used this as a "teachable moment", and got her using a G19, without the laser, then her boyfriends' gun. In this instance, sights were easier for her.

In any of the schools I've been to thru the years, no instructor, or staff person I've had the privilige to work with has had a laser equipped gun. The one comment that I remember about all of this that stands out came from Clint Smith at TR, when during a break, the class was having the "caliber-laser-type of gun" discussion. Clint said, "Whatever system you choose is up to you. Chances are that the rest of us won't be there when you really need it. Remember that your life could depend on your choice".

One possible test could be for someone to use a laser in a class (like mine, or similar), getting away from a "controlled environment", then report back.

Again, this is all just my humble opinion.

Don

I fully agree Don, but there are those that use lasers and say that scores improve and that maybe I should move into the 21st century. I think they are a good training aid and are maybe an advantage in the some situations. But since I carry and want to cover all situations, I don't use them and I have learned to shoot with as few of aids as possible.

[cmj685]

Though I have a laser, I am not particularly invested in the system to any great degree, and only rarely shoot with it. I have had one real situation where it turned out to be extraordinarily effective, and convinced me that for home defense at night I would never be without it again. But just to respond to one of the many helpful things DonL said: I did recently read some national handgun expert give effusive praise to the laser sight, but I will be darned if I can find it or remember who it was now. Anyway, the level of praise from this particular expert impressed me greatly at the time and confirmed for me that even at the highest levels, the laser is gradually being recognized as the terrific tool it is for its specific uses.

Edited later to say that, the longer I think about it, the more I think it was Massad Ayoob's praise for the laser that struck me. But I simply cannot remember where I ran across it.

[phorvick]

I won't beat this too much more, but in my mind what it boils down to for me is that the real laser zealots (and I am not suggesting that is true of any poster here) wants the laser to be the end-of-the-discussion on self-defense options...the one size fits all approach.

I agree 100% that there are places where lasers can be extraordinarily effective. But, I also suggest that there are not that many folks, me included, that know (a) the best uses and (b) the worst uses. I think they have "a place" in your self-defense arsenal. But where and to what extent is very highly debatable and surely differs from one person to the next.

[cmj685]

I agree with Phorvick and DonL in virtually everything they have said (sorry guys if you took anything for argument--I was actually arguing with the ridiculous anti-laser zealots I periodically read, none of whom are probably on this board). I too have at least one serious concern about the laser, though it is neither the battery failure nor that someone can't shoot after coming to depend on the laser. It is that, in a low light situation, the laser would appear to give the location of the gunner away. I suspect at high level training there are ways to ameliorate that kind of thing (I would assume the same thing accrues to using a flashlight at night) but I don't know what they are at this point. Sometimes it is pretty clear where the gunner is and it is irrelevent--i.e. in a face to face situation. But in my own home defense situation, one of the greatest tactical advantages I have is that the intruder couldn't possibly know where I was since I keep my location dark and his necessary entry point backlit. But the laser shining out from my dark location pretty much gives away the secret I would guess. Then I have lost one of my huge tactical advantages.

[Don L]

Every school I've been to teaches the same flashlight tecnique-sweep, shut the light off, and move, to get off the spot you were on! Back to lasers- I see some well intentioned shooters that have gone out and spent hundreds on lasers because they're looking for a "magic improvement" in their shooting skills, and then they're disappointed when they don't get that improvment. It still comes back to the fumdamentals, and thats for all of us! One comment on articles: Ayoob and his daughter were in my DH 2 class at TR, using Berettas. Six months later the new Glock Annual came out, and guess who had a couple of articles in it praising Glocks? And I do have immense respect for the man, and his knowledge! I like to keep thoughts like that in mind when I read any articles.

[cmj685]

Hey Don,
Thanks for the thoughts on using light and moving off the X. Good thoughts. And you are right--people are always looking for some shortcut instead of putting the time and money and effort into legitimate improvement. If you can't shoot without a laser, I just don't see how you can shoot with one? It is no magic pill. And yes, I agree that whenever you read an expert (or a gun magazine which seem to be even worse) you have to take anything you read with a grain of salt. It seems that commercial interests (gasp!) sometimes influence opinions on things, maybe even with people like Massad!

[BamBam]

Wow I didn't realize there would be this much response to the subject of lasers, I sure did learn a lot. What I'm gathering is that at the range it can be much more accurate than without, especially for beginners, but seems you have to look for the dot and can be time consuming, as for self defense , it seems it boils down to how much time you have to "spot" your intruder, With a laser you have him covered with the dot and also have both eyes open and would think your field of vision would be better (maybe there's more that 1 intruder) It depends on the situation weather or not he's attacking or not, or your objective is to "do the necessary" I thinks it Important to know how to shoot without them and not depend on them but at the same time the laser is an added bonus feature.

[Don L]

Actually, I was zapped with a taser for not moving off the "X" quick enough in one class. A person has a tendancy to remember after that! As I said, I have the utmost respect for Nasaad Ayoob, and I believe that his column on legalities with real csae studies every month in Combat Handguns is well worth reading, and his LFI course is first rate. IMHO, the gun and school reviews in SWAT have a tendancy to be more "brutally honest" than some (not all) others, which seem to "sugar coat" any problems they may find. When you think about it from their side, they've got advertisers to think about, too. As far as the "laser dot", our eyes are drawn to movement, and that dot will be moving, unless you have the steadiest of steady grips, which will be very hard to do, in the "real deal". (Again IMHO)

[CraigJS]

Lasers can help if you need reading glasses (arms length), but don't need anything for longer distances. I fall into this group. I can't walk around with glasses on, 1/2 readers 1/2 plain glass. I've tried it, I wear safety glasses 10 hours a day, I HAVE to switch them around. I'm an electrician, everthings at arms length.. Try going up and down a 10 foot ladder with reading glasses on, don't expect me to break your fall. If I'm at the range, with my cheater safety glasses on irons sights no problem. Without them, my point shooting had better save my fanny! I practice with laser and irons, with glasses and without. Just a rant nothing more. I wish my eyes were different but those are the cards I've been delt..
Be safe (anyway you can).

[Don L]

You're in the same spot that a lot of us are in! i'm wearing my readers more and more as the years go on. I work with some shooters that wear bi, and tri-focals, and it takes a while for them to figure out which part of their glasses to look thru. One guy even had a special pair made just for shooting. You're right-we work with what we have to work with. One guy i was working with went from being a commercial aircraft mechanic, to going thru a serious illness, and ending up in a wheelchair. I worked with him on some new (for him) carry, drawing, and shooting techniques. He was great to work with, and his "can do" attitude made it a learning experience for both of us (and humbling for me).

[JonL]

Any thoughts about the usefulness in a course of training in using a laser as an aid in developing muscle memory to improve point-shooting skills. I believe this would require lots of practice, starting out with using the laser nearly 100% of the time and gradually going off the laser. Would this be a viable training regimen? Practicing on a moving target would probably really be helpful but probably not possible for the majority of us. So, does informed opinion think I'm really out of it here or not?

[1911fan]

My dad is 80 plus, he has bad eyes, and they are getting worse, his house guns are a model 36 and a 13 with CT LG on. He can hit clay pigeons used as reactive targets out to 30 yards with his guns, WHEN he uses the laser, without, its a one in ten chance.

I was made aware of the CTC grips by a guy who works for the State Dept and has used them extensively in Afghanistan. His real world experience is that in dark places, nothing else works as well. He has them on his SIG and M4. I have used them on beretta 96 and find that high speed hits goes up substantially for me.

[Dick Unger]

Lasers are great on a snubbie. I don't think they likely to be used in a sudden self defense situation, but you could probably do a head shot at a fair distance. I've used mine to kill coons and skunks and even a beaver in the water ( headshot at 35 yds.) I do carry a gun with a hammer so I can shoot single action. Maybe a 22 rifle would be better for that, but there are always unexpected opportunties.

The best part of lasers is that you don't have to extend the gun forward in front of your face. Just brace it against your body a tree, anything. No practice necessary with a laser.

[Don L]

What I recommend to folks in my classes for dry practice can work with or without a laser-as the trigger breaks, are the sights staying still? If they're moving, your shot(s) will be off, no matter what kind of sight system you're using, point, flash, laser, whatever. Again IMHO, what a civilian may face (and hopefully never) is different than a war zone, where more of the potential targets could be "bad guys". Think of the tragedy of an innocent person (family member? friend?) being hurt, or worse, because someone just pointed at a shadow. Myself, again IMHO, I would want to fully identify (for me, that means light) a potential threat. If I can't clearly see my target, I've got no right to shoot it. Can you imagine answering that question in court? "Did you clearly see the target before you shot? Lastly, IMHO, there's no replacement for training and practice.