Police going back to 9mm?

[gyrfalcon]

... equals possible issues using ball ammo, so my point is why risk it? (Hell, why not use a 9mm frangible round?, though I don't know how that would penetrate...)

If you read into the major studies, 12" of penetration is needed to hit vital organs. That's why I use FMJ in my .380.

[Pinnacle]

So Pinnacle,

I think I"m getting the gist of what you are saying, but I'm still confused as to what you are trying to say via ball vs SD.

Let say we are talking about 9mm. If the choice was between NATO powered Ball and SD ammo, and they were being put in the same places (on or near target), I would argue that it would be better to go for the SD. You yourself said that it will penetrate sufficiently (possibly through), so you are not loosing anything there. I"m saying that what you gain by the SD is that it will be less likely to ricochet or come out the other side with 100% weight (and shape) retention plus most of it's speed. This in my opinion equals possible issues using ball ammo, so my point is why risk it? (Hell, why not use a 9mm frangible round?, though I don't know how that would penetrate...)

What I am saying is that there are some rounds and guns themselves that are not designed for anything other than BALL. HP's cant be counted on to reliably open anyhow and over-penetration is always a concern but dont let it paralyze you, there are ways to deal with it... It happens. What I am saying is that Ball has about a 99.999999% chance of working when you need it to - SD Ammunition out of a lot of guns isnt all that reliable, or penetrative enough in smaller calibers... Think about the platform, and how it was designed to work and what it was designed to work with. Work within the limitations of the tool that you have at your disposal.... It is likely not the one that you really need - but it is going to have to do - so give it all of the advantages you can.

There is no assurance that SD Ammunition will stop in a human anyhow..... Overpenetration is always the rule and not the exception.... It is not that a HP is a bad choice, in SOME guns it works well - LIke i said all of the newer 9mm's are DESIGNED TO SHOOT SD AMMO.... 1911's are DESIGNED TO SHOOT BALL, Small guns need BALL, Period.

Example - 1911's are largely designed to use 230gr BALL. You go out and buy some screaming 185's - yeah they are cool but they hang up in your gun all of the time and cause malfunctions that well, just don't do it for you when it matters... Now tell me, are you better off with 230 gr BALL that works all of the time, or the 185's that suck, kick harder (faster) and well are not what the gun was meant to shoot.

Another one - you get a walther PPK/S Cool little gun - HP's in mine didnt work at all, I had to use BALL - and guess what worked like a charm every time... A gun that works all of the time is worth a lot more than one that works well, sometimes.... Or throws bullets that are not capable of good penetration and are unreliable in the weapon system.... Choice should be obvious...

Small underpowered calibers need all of the advantages they can get in penetration and reliability... Remember that all guns need to shoot what they were designed to shoot... .And some times it is ball. Plain and simple.

Frangible ammunition is NOT at all a bad choice for a couple of reasons - especially in a carbine...

[Norsesmithy]

The point about the Frangible ammo is that if 55 grain Frangible .223 training ammo couldn't defeat the the home made soft armor (with non armor steel trauma reinforcements) of Emil Mătăsăreanu, then Nato 9mm out of a 16 inch carbine sure as heck wouldn't.

Agreed?

As far as fancy bonded JHPs vs ball, that should be a matter of choice for each officer, for each firearm.

My 1911 will feed an empty case more than half the time, and I've never been able to make it hang up on a bullet, so I have no problem choosing a giant ash tray of a JHP. If it doesn't expand, it's still a 230 grain .45 Super bullet.

[Shipyard]

And I don't know that the cost savings between an AR-15 and a 9mm carbine are going to be enormous unless you go with something like a Hipoint.

i always thought the ruger police carbines were a great application of this. all you really need is a souped up 10/22 in a pistol cal. not too hard to do - marlin, ruger, hi-point, kel-tec and just about EVERY ar maker puts out a 9mm cambering in a 16" barrel (or did at one time).

i can't remember what the ruger police carbines retailed for when they came out but i guarantee it's a hell of a lot less than a lot of the AR platforms cruising around in a patrol car...

i think farmer's got a good idea of the carbine/pistol interchangeability with mags and caliber as a way to cut costs while maintaining effectiveness. it just makes sense.

[grousemaster]

And I don't know that the cost savings between an AR-15 and a 9mm carbine are going to be enormous unless you go with something like a Hipoint.

i always thought the ruger police carbines were a great application of this. all you really need is a souped up 10/22 in a pistol cal. not too hard to do - marlin, ruger, hi-point, kel-tec and just about EVERY ar maker puts out a 9mm cambering in a 16" barrel (or did at one time).

i can't remember what the ruger police carbines retailed for when they came out but i guarantee it's a hell of a lot less than a lot of the AR platforms cruising around in a patrol car...

i think farmer's got a good idea of the carbine/pistol interchangeability with mags and caliber as a way to cut costs while maintaining effectiveness. it just makes sense.

Some of the stages at Outbreak Omega clearly showed the difference in .40 and 9mm. The staff would ask if you were shooting 9mm because some of the steel targets would take SEVERAL shots to fall. One shot from a .40 or .45 and they would drop. I have video proof of such, no joke.

[Pinnacle]

Farmer -
As far as the 9mm Carbine goes, it is an NIJ3A Type Classified Threat under the old 04 standard - it still applies that this is a NASTY round to deal with and while a vest that does not meet NIJ3A MAY stop the round, the back-face is going to do a lot of damage. You are pushing a well constructed, high Sectional Density Bullet at a very high rate of speed, and remember I like the 9mm because in BALL - the bullets are tougher than Woodpecker Lips and penetrate like hell.

I know this will be "another drift". But I think the definition is worth the risk.


Can you explain that in layman's terms. I follow it somewhat only because I researched in about 9 years ago. When I first learned what a 9mm carbine was capable of.

What type of body armor is NIJ3A?

NIJ3A is Armor that will defeat most all Pistol Rounds and 00 12ga Shot and some of the other rather nasty common trounds - well like the 240gr 44 MAGNUM JSP @1450fps.....

Pretty common stuff for Street Wear actually. NIJ3A is nothing special and it is too much as far as I am concerned for street use. There is also a 3A variation that is used in teh IOTV - not the same ballistics, but the fragmentation defeat is better than all other options.

A 3A threat is No joke... Just short of rifle threats.

[Pinnacle]

The point about the Frangible ammo is that if 55 grain Frangible .223 training ammo couldn't defeat the the home made soft armor (with non armor steel trauma reinforcements) of Emil Mătăsăreanu, then Nato 9mm out of a 16 inch carbine sure as heck wouldn't.

Agreed?

As far as fancy bonded JHPs vs ball, that should be a matter of choice for each officer, for each firearm.

My 1911 will feed an empty case more than half the time, and I've never been able to make it hang up on a bullet, so I have no problem choosing a giant ash tray of a JHP. If it doesn't expand, it's still a 230 grain .45 Super bullet.

I dont load my gun with empty cases before I leave the house.. Do you?

[Pinnacle]

The point about the Frangible ammo is that if 55 grain Frangible .223 training ammo couldn't defeat the the home made soft armor (with non armor steel trauma reinforcements) of Emil Mătăsăreanu, then Nato 9mm out of a 16 inch carbine sure as heck wouldn't.

Agreed?

As far as fancy bonded JHPs vs ball, that should be a matter of choice for each officer, for each firearm.

My 1911 will feed an empty case more than half the time, and I've never been able to make it hang up on a bullet, so I have no problem choosing a giant ash tray of a JHP. If it doesn't expand, it's still a 230 grain .45 Super bullet.

This is something that I would need proof to believe and I mean more than anecdotal "proof" - I have fired lots of ammunition into armor materials and let me tell you something, if purpose built armor cant stop Frangible 5.56 in most cases - homemade stuff is going to have a tough time.....

5.56 Frangible is NASTY on soft armor... Just Plain Nasty.

[Pinnacle]

... equals possible issues using ball ammo, so my point is why risk it? (Hell, why not use a 9mm frangible round?, though I don't know how that would penetrate...)

If you read into the major studies, 12" of penetration is needed to hit vital organs. That's why I use FMJ in my .380.

That is the most intelligent thing that I have seen from you yet...

Keep up the good work.

[Norsesmithy]

The point about the Frangible ammo is that if 55 grain Frangible .223 training ammo couldn't defeat the the home made soft armor (with non armor steel trauma reinforcements) of Emil Mătăsăreanu, then Nato 9mm out of a 16 inch carbine sure as heck wouldn't.

Agreed?

As far as fancy bonded JHPs vs ball, that should be a matter of choice for each officer, for each firearm.

My 1911 will feed an empty case more than half the time, and I've never been able to make it hang up on a bullet, so I have no problem choosing a giant ash tray of a JHP. If it doesn't expand, it's still a 230 grain .45 Super bullet.

I dont load my gun with empty cases before I leave the house.. Do you?

The point is that my 1911 has no trouble feeding JHPs with an enormous front opening and steep ogives, rather than the fact that if I put an empty in my mag it turns into a Failure to Fire drill instead of a failure to feed drill. Other pistols sometimes have trouble feeding fancy JHPs, and should therefore be fed ball (even if they are in a caliber that produces adequate penetration with big and nasty JHPs).

The first "blue" AR-15 on scene for the North Hollywood shootout was loaded with Winchester frangible training ammo (55 grain). It was noted that Emil's armor protected him from this ammo, despite the fact that there were several verified COM hits. His armor was later defeated by Winchester Q3131 55 grain ball ammo, but shot placement for those hits was less than ideal.

[farmerj]

Sounds like a lot more than just simple soft body armor.

They wore homemade body armor of Kevlar sewn around steel trauma plates. They took Phenobarbital to calm their nerves,

http://listverse.com/2009/10/14/top-10- ... s-history/

[Pinnacle]

Sounds like a lot more than just simple soft body armor.

They wore homemade body armor of Kevlar sewn around steel trauma plates. They took Phenobarbital to calm their nerves,

http://listverse.com/2009/10/14/top-10- ... s-history/

Multiple layers of soft armor with steel. The steel will/might defeat Frangible but there is no soft armor that will defeat rifle caliber frangible.

And i would love to know where someone got the information that the lapd used frangible.

[plblark]

They are going to 9mm because of the cost and shortage of .40, according to a police chief I know that orders ammo for his (small) department. The cops have to get the ammo through the procurement process, and it takes months for 40. Some departments have not gotten ammo for training etc.

Apparently 9mm is readily available.

Not to get this thread back on topic or anything but I talked to an officer involved in the selection process for SPPD. Dick, as usual, is spot on. Ammo availability was a big factor in the drive to think about a switch. Price difference on a large contract is negligible. If you have the coolest .45 on the planet and can't get duty ammo for it for 17 months, it does no good sitting in the armorer's safe, does it?

1. Officers have more confidence in a weapon they can handle more effectively and place rounds on target. It's not the size of the rounds, its the placement that is what is more important.

2. With M&P and the gen 4 glocks, they are able to accommodate a wide variety of officers and fit the.gun to their hand.

[macphisto]

This morning, I pulled the 80gr. Cor-Bon DPX out of my P3AT and replaced it with 95gr. Aguila FMJ.

[Pinnacle]

Sounds like a lot more than just simple soft body armor.

They wore homemade body armor of Kevlar sewn around steel trauma plates. They took Phenobarbital to calm their nerves,

http://listverse.com/2009/10/14/top-10- ... s-history/

I dont see anywhere in that article or whatever it was about the specifics of the shootout that are being mentioned.

We need to take this somewhere else as this is off topic.