The BEST Carry Handgun and Condition.....

[DS99]

I'm interested to hear everybody's thoughts on this intensely (often religiously) debated topic.

I've heard many different theories and discussion points over the years myself. In the course of these discussions there are a number of concepts that really seem to be more accurately described as cliche's that seem to always get thrown around, some of which I personally feel are potentially harmful to someone who wishes to use a weapon for self-defense purposes.

I will add some content below for the purposes of discussion, not for the purposes of offending anybody....healthy debate ultimately makes us all smarter (or should).

One of my personal pet peeves is the old "you have to pick the gun that fits you". In my opinion, this really is both ridiculous AND potentially harmful in a self-defense application. I don't for a minute discount the ergonomic requirements of individuals with differently sized hands, but most modern handguns are very well suited for the vast majority of adults. From a high-performance technical shooting perspective there are some limiting factors from one gun to another based on egronomics. From a self-defense perspective though, it is a very rare case where this really becomes a factor. The factors that affect performance under stress are training and the development of unconscious competency in the use and application of the tool, not the tool itself. Selection of the tool should be based on the task it will be used for. You wouldn't buy a little eyeglasses sized screwdriver if you were planning to take apart your washing machine...so why would you buy a little tiny pocket sized gun that carries a low number of very small rounds and can't hit anything past a few feet to use if you get in a gun battle?

A second pet peeve is "something is better than nothing and you're really just trying to scare him off anyway". While the first part of this statement IS true I fail to see how an instructor can possibly justify recommending substandard equipment to a student simply because it's better than nothing. If all I can possibly get my hands on is a little .25 ACP or a subcompact .380, then sure, it's better than nothing. Let's be honest though, this really isn't EVER the case. If you're going to select a tool for any task, then why on earth would you purposefully CHOOSE something that you KNOW doesn't perform very well? As for the second part...deterrence should come before defense if possible...no arguments there. However, a fight is a fight. Once the deterrence fails, you will either win or you will lose. For goodness sake...if you have options (which you do) pick a tool that can do ALL of the jobs you might need it to do.

More to follow, I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts.

Dusty Salomon
Sealed Mindset Director of Training
http://www.sealedmindset.com

[diskdoctr]

A very interesting subject indeed. I believe it has been discussed here a number of times, somebody else can point out where. Personally, I am not going to get into the war, other than to say I carry every waking moment that it is legal for me to do so. I will say this, typically, I carry a firearm chambered in either .45acp or .40S&W. Always with one in the pipe.

[rtk]

For me Glock works. Proven platform and durable etc...I shoot my carry guns in IDPA and likewise for training. I do use a Smith 442 at times also when a Glock won't fit the need but that is few and far between.

Thanks.

RTK

[Paul]

Personally, I am not going to get into the war, other than to say I carry every waking moment that it is legal for me to do so. I will say this, typically, I carry a firearm chambered in either .45acp or .40S&W. Always with one in the pipe.

Some would argue that carrying different makes/models of guns in a variety of calibers puts you at somewhat of a disadvantage.

[Norsesmithy]

What you are comfortable and proficient with.

[1000]

1911 45 acp. cock and lock. "since 1971"

[White Horseradish]

One of my personal pet peeves is the old "you have to pick the gun that fits you". In my opinion, this really is both ridiculous AND potentially harmful in a self-defense application. I don't for a minute discount the ergonomic requirements of individuals with differently sized hands, but most modern handguns are very well suited for the vast majority of adults. From a high-performance technical shooting perspective there are some limiting factors from one gun to another based on egronomics. From a self-defense perspective though, it is a very rare case where this really becomes a factor. The factors that affect performance under stress are training and the development of unconscious competency in the use and application of the tool, not the tool itself.

I think a better way to put it is "a gun you can use". This is not a consideration to gun geeks like a lot of us here, we will shoot damn near anything just for fun. For normal people a carry gun should be comfortable to practice with, otherwise a regular joe or jill will not practice, and I really don't have to go into why that's "not a good thing"(TM). This is why I think alloy .357 snubbies are ridiculous. A gun you are afraid of is also not a good choice - people who are scared of carrying a 1911 properly would probably be better off with a DA/SA or DAO gun. The fear will prevent them from either training or carrying properly. So, the notion is perfectly valid for some definitions of "fit".

Selection of the tool should be based on the task it will be used for. You wouldn't buy a little eyeglasses sized screwdriver if you were planning to take apart your washing machine...so why would you buy a little tiny pocket sized gun that carries a low number of very small rounds and can't hit anything past a few feet to use if you get in a gun battle?

While I am all for using enough gun, I would like to point out that as a private citizen I do not plan to engage in gun battles. I carry a pistol because I am not expecting trouble. Were I expecting trouble I would carry a rifle and bring some friends along, also with rifles, and, preferably, something belt-fed. Better yet, I would stay home.

A second pet peeve is "something is better than nothing and you're really just trying to scare him off anyway". While the first part of this statement IS true I fail to see how an instructor can possibly justify recommending substandard equipment to a student simply because it's better than nothing. If all I can possibly get my hands on is a little .25 ACP or a subcompact .380, then sure, it's better than nothing. Let's be honest though, this really isn't EVER the case. If you're going to select a tool for any task, then why on earth would you purposefully CHOOSE something that you KNOW doesn't perform very well? As for the second part...deterrence should come before defense if possible...no arguments there. However, a fight is a fight. Once the deterrence fails, you will either win or you will lose. For goodness sake...if you have options (which you do) pick a tool that can do ALL of the jobs you might need it to do.

This, in a way, is also a question of fit. Psychological fit, if you will. I think a lot of us "gun people" have a hard time understanding just how scary a firearm can be a to a complete novice. And the larger they are the scarier they are. A peashooter can be a "baby step" on the way to an actual useful gun.

That said, the bit about "scaring off" is pretty ridiculous. Guns aren't for scaring.

[sochr000]

My opinion on this is:

Find a handgun that you're comfortable with, in a caliber at least 9mm, that you've put at least 100 flawless rounds through. Then, shoot another 500 rounds to make sure the first 100 weren't lucky. If you can't find a pistol that can do this for you, move on and try another.

Comfort should absolutely be a factor in carrying, but I think it's something that can be worked around if needed (squishy grips, replaceable backstraps, etc). If the pistol sucks to practice with, guess what your average person isn't going to practice doing?

[farmerj]

If it works for you...Use it...

If it doesn't....Find something else.

If you can't hit what you shoot at....You can't miss enough to do the job.

Get into the "this caliber is best" all you want, in the end it comes down to placement. And if you can't do that with it, it isn't working for you.

[bensdad]

Taurus MilPRo (111, 140, 145, 745) at appendix. Anything else is maniacle.

[GregM]

Choose the right tool for the task. Always good advice. My task, as I see it, is to defend myself with my gun if I have no other choice. In this situation adrenaline is foaming into my bloodstream, my sensory system is nearly shut down, my manual dexterity is severely impaired, and my pants are a mess. I need a gun that is simple enough for a retarded child --- no safety levers, no magazine releases, and forget about tactical reloads. The gun must be utterly reliable --- no jams, no stovepipes, no accidental discharges. And it must be very, very big. Proper aiming is essential, I know, but the encounter probably will be within spitting range and I'm going to be busy screaming "STOP! STOP! STOP!" If only one out of six shots finds its mark, I want to know that my attacker will bleed to death before the paramedics get to him.

[1911fan]

Recently on here there was the link of the woman (elderly black woman) who scared off/shot her assailant with an Rg.22. Clearly not what we would consider an adequate sidearm, but it did the job. Most hoodlums are chicken, thats why they prey on those least likely to be able to resist. Giving those "prey" people pretty much any form of self defense does a major job in upgrading their status.


As to guns that fit, I disagree mightily, as I have many people try to shoot different hand guns that I have, and have discovered that grip size, trigger reach and trigger pull are major factors in everyday life. Same as slide retraction. I find about 50 % of the students I have find a glock "unshootable" to their hands. ( I have 19's 23's and 26's) the combination of fat squarish grip, grip angle, and trigger pull just makes it extremely difficult to shoot for many.

Same with traditional revolvers, many find the weight, reach and length of the DA trigger pull makes it impossible to shoot well. Likewise, just about as many, find the same factors to be exactly what they want. I find the single most accessible auto I let people try to be the S&W/Walther P99. Hi powers are similar in acceptance for grip, but trigger and safety function are troubles for a lot.

The objective of a gun in a self defense situation is to cause the offender to stop, reconsider or change their plans or to stop the offense from happening. Any gun has that possibility. Sure if we enroll in the belief that as a permitted person we are also taking on the safety of those around us, then carrying 4 mags, pepper spray, 2000 lumen light and Custom Yost .45 makes a lot of sense. IF we decide that all we care about is ourself, then all we need to carry is enough gun to try to change the hoodlums plans. That can be nothing more than a .22.

[Seismic Sam]

Recently on here there was the link of the woman (elderly black woman) who scared off/shot her assailant with an Rg.22. Clearly not what we would consider an adequate sidearm, but it did the job. Most hoodlums are chicken, thats why they prey on those least likely to be able to resist. Giving those "prey" people pretty much any form of self defense does a major job in upgrading their status.

As to guns that fit, I disagree mightily, as I have many people try to shoot different hand guns that I have, and have discovered that grip size, trigger reach and trigger pull are major factors in everyday life. Same as slide retraction. I find about 50 % of the students I have find a glock "unshootable" to their hands. ( I have 19's 23's and 26's) the combination of fat squarish grip, grip angle, and trigger pull just makes it extremely difficult to shoot for many.

1911fan makes some good points - you got a wobbly little old lady, and you're a complete punk azz and *****, and don't got the cojones to take on anyone bigger than yourself, so it won't take very much to scare you off. A .22 will do that, and it will sure make a candy azz bleed and yell for his momma. Don't need a lot more.

On the other hand, someone who is going to come after me at 6'3" and 240 has to be a complete idiot to think I'm going to go easy, (and I've HAD a conplete idiot 100 pounds lighter and 8" shorter take a run at me, but that's another story) so pulling out a .22 isn't going to get the job done.

In addition, there are a LOT of people out there who because of health issues such as arthritis or other health conditions may not find a gun they can shoot AND like all that easy. As such, I think your generalization about most guns being usable by most people to be a little TOO general. Between the gun shape, size, and weight, plus recoil and need for a certain level of stopping power (that's 5 factors right there without getting into Condition at all) I think the choice of gun is fairly personal and fairly specialized. And to bring up what Teddy Atlas always says on Friday Night fights, boxing is 25% physical and 75% psychological. No different for guns. You have to believe that the gun you are carrying is the best fit for you in the world.

I exist on the other end of the spectrum, and my hands are so large that I need AT LEAST a 9mm fullsize doublestack just to be able to hang onto it with all my fingers and be able to pull the trigger without the tip of my trigger finger running into the frame on the left side of the gun before the hammer drops.

Oh- check the avatar - that's the barrel on my carry gun. Without doing any Googling, what SPECIFIC cartridge fits in that barrel?

[mmcnx2]

Dusty, while your are welcome to your pet peeves, I'm welcome to disagree.

Fit, while a subjective term is critical. To me fit means what can/will you carry and be able to shoot proficiently. Using your theory, I should carry a 12 gauge short barreled automatic. It is far better in fight than a handgun and surely will get the job done. But its not easy to carry, thus I may not carry it daily, or the day I really need it.

So if my wife can and will carry a 9mm, in addition she can shoot it very well. I would suggest if push came to shove she will perform better with it than my 45 1911 that she is half as accurate with at the range.

So while you your peeves are noted; for a guy in the business of training and educating folks you have a unique method of voicing your view and attempting to persuade people to your position.

[justaguy]

Everyone needs to carry a .45 Glock anything less will get you killed. 99% of dead people didn't have Glock .45's when they gave up the ghost. Pretty hard to fight those numbers.