The BEST Carry Handgun and Condition.....

[DS99]

Recently on here there was the link of the woman (elderly black woman) who scared off/shot her assailant with an Rg.22. Clearly not what we would consider an adequate sidearm, but it did the job. Most hoodlums are chicken, thats why they prey on those least likely to be able to resist. Giving those "prey" people pretty much any form of self defense does a major job in upgrading their status.

Very true. A .22 can work fine, no doubt about it. However, that doesn't mean it's a good carry option given a choice. (My personal opinion).

As to guns that fit, I disagree mightily, as I have many people try to shoot different hand guns that I have, and have discovered that grip size, trigger reach and trigger pull are major factors in everyday life. Same as slide retraction. I find about 50 % of the students I have find a glock "unshootable" to their hands. ( I have 19's 23's and 26's) the combination of fat squarish grip, grip angle, and trigger pull just makes it extremely difficult to shoot for many.

Same with traditional revolvers, many find the weight, reach and length of the DA trigger pull makes it impossible to shoot well. Likewise, just about as many, find the same factors to be exactly what they want. I find the single most accessible auto I let people try to be the S&W/Walther P99. Hi powers are similar in acceptance for grip, but trigger and safety function are troubles for a lot.

No doubt that different weapons fit different people better from an ergonomic perspective than others do. It is possible though to teach virtually anyone (with a few exceptions of course) to shoot most anything of standard carry size and caliber effectively. My point is that it ultimately becomes more of a training issue than an equipment issue.

The reason DA trigger pull (during presentation under stress) is one of the most difficult things to learn in shooting so for that reason I personally don't recommend DA guns for self-defense. That being said, it's something that anyone can learn to do. It just takes a lot more training time.

The objective of a gun in a self defense situation is to cause the offender to stop, reconsider or change their plans or to stop the offense from happening. Any gun has that possibility. Sure if we enroll in the belief that as a permitted person we are also taking on the safety of those around us, then carrying 4 mags, pepper spray, 2000 lumen light and Custom Yost .45 makes a lot of sense. IF we decide that all we care about is ourself, then all we need to carry is enough gun to try to change the hoodlums plans. That can be nothing more than a .22.

This I disagree with. This is one use for the gun, and an important one. In my opinion though putting it this way has a chance of making the weapon a liability if someone who carries is unable to press the trigger, should that become necessary, because it may give them the impression that they don't have to be mentally prepared to do so. Again, just my opinion. Also, if pressing the trigger is necessary, it's to stop a threat, so more effective rounds with better terminal ballistics are going to do that job better.

Thanks for the comments. Good discussion!

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

[Paul]

The reason DA trigger pull (during presentation under stress) is one of the most difficult things to learn in shooting so for that reason I personally don't recommend DA guns for self-defense. That being said, it's something that anyone can learn to do. It just takes a lot more training time.

How so?

I've never found a double action trigger pull to be problematic. I carried a Sig 226 for years as a duty weapon and never had issue with the initial DA trigger pull.

I think that in a lot of ways, a DAO gun is potentially a better choice for some in a self defense situation. The less you have to think about, and the fewer controls you have to manipulate in a stressful situation, the better off you are.

[DS99]

Oh- check the avatar - that's the barrel on my carry gun. Without doing any Googling, what SPECIFIC cartridge fits in that barrel?

Good points all.

This may just be my personal experience from instructing, but often what somebody can perform well with on a the range in terms of marksmanship in the first 20 minutes that they ever touch a firearm is not necessarily what will work well for them in the long run given time and training.

That looks like it's maybe a 1911 barrel? But I have no idea what cartridge it shoots.

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

[plblark]

Clint Smith has some comments about knowing how guns in general work and handling as many different ones as you can. His point is that heaven forbid the worst happens, the gun that you have available to save your life may not be your own. It may be one you wrestle from your attacker or pick up when it's dropped.

Looking at the news on civilian self defense, I see a lot of "homeowner took the gun from attacker and shot him with it" type stories.

Is there a gun that each student will be more comfortable, confident, and competent shooting? probably.
Should they be able to shoot almost anything, given the proper basics? Most anything. Leaving physical disabilities or excessive grip to hand fit issues aside, the fundamentals of grip, stance, sight alignment, etc work on all guns.

Another wrinkle though: Under stress and adrenaline, Will they be able to stage a trigger? Will they be able to SEE the sight? Will they have time to use a good stance? Or will it just be semi-aimed instinctual shooting? If that's the case, the average person is going to be more comfortable, confident, and competent with a gun they have practiced with and which fits them.

We shouldn't limit people's options. We shouldn't steer them towards "the perfect gun" but we should help them find what they like, what they feel comfortable with, what they're accurate with, what they will actually carry and use. We should help give them the tools to make their own choices.

[DS99]

Most people here carry for simple defensive purposes. What would recommend as a DAILY carry weapon/equipment in case the SHTF and you find yourself in the middle of a Rambo style gun battle in the mall? If your goal is to get to cover or run out of the building, the argument could be made that a revolver would serve that purpose.

No doubt. To be clear, I'm not advocating a Red Dawn style offensive engagement by a Permit to Carry holder in the event of a such an incident. What I do advocate is breaking contact...and that's specifically what we teach for civilians.

I'm simply saying that, given the fact that this is a possibility, I personally see it as a very limiting option to pick something that doesn't allow you to engage at distance effectively. Admittedly my perspective is a touch different...but I always view it as a mistake to make a decision that limits your tactical options BEFORE the fight starts, particularly when there are options available that don't give the same limitations.

The standard weapons I recommend are either the Glock 17 or 22 specifically. I recommend against people getting a weapon smaller than the 19/23 because smaller than that becomes very difficult to handle/present under stress for most folks and because the cability to engage effectively at any kind of distance starts becoming a problem due to the shorter sight radius, particularly under stress.

There are plenty of other good weapons besides a Glock...that's just in response to your question.

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

[1911fan]

Believe me I am not suggesting a .22 is a perfect defense gun. If so, I would not carry 2 pounds of 1911 on my hip, however, its my belief that the vast majority of self defense situations stop well before someone gets shot. Some punk is trying to break in a house and hears or sees thru a curtain the profile of a person with a gun and they are outta there. Same thing on the street. Someone starts towards someone, and suddenly that person produces a gun and yells GTFOH, most time, that thug runs for a long time.

In those cases, (and I am NOT inferring its a good idea) an airsoft would have done the job. Its the appearance of fangs on the sheep that causes the perp to choose to go elsewhere.

However, once that line is crossed, its the need to stop the threat as soon as possible, either by knocking them down thru impacts or causing them to alter their decision and to try and get away. Here shooting well is more important that shooting big. Hits with a mild .38 are going to do far more than misses from a .357 or larger. While its hard to buy them commercially, 148 DEWC leave nasty wounds, penetrate a long way, and go straight thru stuff. The large flat meplat just punches through and leaves a mess in its wake.

I just want it clear that I wish people could all shoot .44 specials or .45 ACP's and bad guys were all born with a birthmark that says "shoot me" on the forehead. but that does not happen, and therefore we need to train people to use the best weapon available for them, to the best advantage, and to do so with the mindset that "I am going home today, NO matter what"

[DS99]

The reason DA trigger pull (during presentation under stress) is one of the most difficult things to learn in shooting so for that reason I personally don't recommend DA guns for self-defense. That being said, it's something that anyone can learn to do. It just takes a lot more training time.

How so?

I've never found a double action trigger pull to be problematic. I carried a Sig 226 for years as a duty weapon and never had issue with the initial DA trigger pull.

I think that in a lot of ways, a DAO gun is potentially a better choice for some in a self defense situation. The less you have to think about, and the fewer controls you have to manipulate in a stressful situation, the better off you are.

I carried both 226 and a Beretta for work at one point or another and never found it to be problematic either...but then I practiced a lot. It can be learned, but it's more difficult to learn because of the need to apply a lot of pressure over a long distance quickly, and because you have to learn two different trigger presses (DA/SA), that's my only point.

I'm not knocking DA guns...just saying that it's one more thing that has to be learned and practiced.

Dusty

http://www.sealedmindset.com

[1911fan]

The standard weapons I recommend are either the Glock 17 or 22 specifically. I recommend against people getting a weapon smaller than the 19/23 because smaller than that becomes very difficult to handle/present under stress for most folks and because the cability to engage effectively at any kind of distance starts becoming a problem due to the shorter sight radius, particularly under stress.

At least half of the people I teach hate G's Funny thing the one size G that most could tolerate is the 26. its for some reason. easier to shoot for the people I have trained.

Let me just say, that my truck gun is a 26, with 2 happy sticks (g18 33 rounders) as back up. Why? because its a cheap gun, 350 bucks at Streichers, I can carry it easily, it sits in a safe place most of the time and if needed, I instantly have nearly 75 rounds of 9 mm to deal with. If the vehicle I usually drive had the space, I would prefer to carry a m1 carbine or similar, but this vehicle has no space
Maybe someday I will live in a state where an MP5 or Uzi would be allowed as a truck gun, but till then, I use the 26.

I don't subscribe to G's in 40 cal because of the KB issue. I have seen one, seen the results first hand of two, and thats enough for me.

Regarding triggers and stress, A DA trigger that drops to a SA trigger will work for a lot of people,. A SA trigger that has a safety needs to be trained in, a DAO to me, most just are lousy excuses that promote bad shooting, but a few, like the XD or the P99 seem to have pretty good mechanics inside and seem to keep a pretty good consistent trigger.

[phorvick]

The statistical odds that any one person at random will NEED a firearm to protect themselves is very very small. I am not sure there is any objective data, but I would think <1%, and probably far less than 1%.

Next, 12/13 bad people will leave you alone once they see you can defend yourself (data is from the NRA). So, for those folks, caliber was irrelevent.

Now, change that into 24/26. The 25th bad person will stop their attack when hit by a bullet of any caliber. Reason? They are cowards and do not like pain. Again, the ability to retrieve the firearm from concealment and fire a shot is significantly more important than caliber for 25/26 bad people. However, if you have the misfortune of meeting bad person #26, the strung out meth head or person that wants to harm you or rob you from some personal level, then you want the biggest baddest gun you can control.

It all comes down to odds and what a person is willing to carry. Statistically, carrying something is significantly better than carrying nothing, IF needed.

I have concluded that the best gun to carry, by far, is (a) a loaded one that (b) you are willing to routinely carry. Getting into caliber wars, styles, etc. is all interesting for sure, but does not alter the basic fact that something is better than nothing.

[ijosef]

I believe in the "shoot what fits you" idea. That said, I think you should seek out a firearm with adequate stopping power (if there is such a thing in a handgun) and try to get used to it, but ultimately being able to shoot reliably and reasonably accurately under stressful conditions is what matters. To echo what others have said, there's no point carrying a big .45 auto if you cannot shoot it with any reasonable degree of accuracy or reliability. In my opinion, pick the most powerful round you can shoot well and practice with it. That's what you should carry. I might like to carry a .357 magnum, but what if I get into a situation where I have to discharge my firearm inside my car? What am I going to do after I'm deaf and blind from the blast and muzzle flash? Obviously doing so isn't an idea situation and any gun will at least disorient you when going off in such close quarters, but you get the point.

In my opinion, one should go for at least .38spl+P in a wheelgun and at least 9mm in an auto. I regret selling my Kel-Tec P11 and would like to get another. I found it very reliable and I was surprisingly accurate with the little thing. Loaded with 10+1 rounds of good defensive ammunition, I think it's a fine carry piece. That said, my CCW instructor was not a believer in the necessity of powerful/large calibers. He often carried a .380 or smaller, even down to a little revolver in .22 Magnum.

Of course carrying a gun will be irrelevant for me once I finish mastering this art:

[westberg]

Along with the selection of handgun and caliber....... It is one thing to stand on the firing line and punch holes in paper targets or at the family property making cans dance around the field. Most shooters get a feeling of being a pretty good shooter and they are under those conditions.

I'm sure every instructor on this board teaching advanced handgun courses or seeing people shoot competition for the first time, there is a realization that there is a lot more to shooting then just pulling the trigger. What works well for a person standing in place slow firing may not work well in training.

We hear all of the time how reliable someones gun is, but has that same gun been shot running 150+ rounds through it as fast as you can to get it nice an hot. I know someone will come back with how likely is that you will run into 150 bad guy's, the point is that you should push yourself and equipment to see what the limits are.

[plblark]

Amen Ron. Practical Pistol last Thursday was educational (and FUN)

[GregM]

That being said, you will usually perform like you've trained to perform, both mentally and physically. Tounge in cheek responses about stress aside, if you believe that you will melt down under stress and visualize yourself melting down under stress...then chances are that is exactly what will happen. Conversely, if you train correctly and often (both mentally and physically) to perform under the stress of a fight, then the chances are that you will perform pretty well.

On your last comment, terminal ballistics have a tendancy to be really inconsistent. That being said, the stated objective of any defensive engagement should probably be more along the lines of stopping a specific threat/action rather than trying to make somebody bleed out.

I'm not expecting to melt down. But I will be terrified beyond anything I've ever experienced (since I've never been in a life threatening encounter) and that's something I should be prepared for.

And yes, the goal of a defensive engagement is to stop the attack. Hopefully, I will accomplish this by running away. If that doesn't work (or I'm unable to run), perhaps displayng my enormous handgun and yelling "STOP! STOP! STOP!" will do the trick. If my attacker still insists on carrying out his assault I can only assume that he is an extremely dangerous predator who must be stopped once and for all. At this point, inflicting a survivable wound is not what I would call a desirable outcome.

[Rem700]

Wasnt there a couple of guys ringing steel or ballons with jframes at like 400yds seems one was holding it upside down.
Guess they didnt have any problem with sight radius

[Pat Cannon]

Well apparently a lot of people just settle on a favorite gun, then rationalize their choice, to the point of believing that the only acceptable weapon and carry method is the one they use. Since I am apparently the only one here capable of rising above that sort of thing, I will do you people the favor of setting you straight:

The defensive pistol must be the most reliable available. So it is a revolver.

It must be the simplest to operate under stress. That means double action only. No 'condition' decision need be made.

It should fire the most effective round that is manageable. That is .357 Magnum.

It should be light enough to carry comfortably but heavy enough to shoot full power ammo comfortably. That is 20-25 oz.

It should have adequate capacity for any realistically foreseeable threat. That is five rounds.

It should be sturdy and low maintenance, so ideally, stainless steel.

It should be sturdy and not overpriced. So it is a Ruger.

There you have it. You're welcome.
Anything else you want me to settle, just let me know.