Manufacture replacing handgun question

[TRW407]

Hey MNGT,

I am in the middle of a warranty claim with FN and will likely be getting my current gun replaced instead of repaired as it has been discontinued.

If that is the case, when the replacement gun gets to an FFL, does that FFL have to do the entire purchase procedure as they would if I walked in looking to buy? Or since it was replaced, can I simply pick it up and walk out?

I would imagine that the entire purchasing procedure is required, but am just checking.

Thanks, Tyler

[onebohemian]

Federal law allows the manufacturer to ship the (new) replaced or (old) repaired gun directly to you. You don't have to use an FFL. Most manufacturers know this, but some may still utilize an FFL. Ask FN before you set up shipment to an FFL.

[onebohemian]

Here is thethe federal regulation cite: 27 CFR 478.124.

[BemidjiDweller]

If the FFL touches it, they will need to do a NICS for it.

[Squib Joe]

Federal law allows the manufacturer to ship the (new) replaced or (old) repaired gun directly to you

A replacement firearm can only be shipped directly back to the owner if the same serial number as the original is used (a re-stamp). Manufacturers will rarely do this. Otherwise a NICS check will be required for a newly serialized gun.

[EAJuggalo]

Then how did Glock ship the E series recalls direct to the customers? They all had different serial numbers.

[Squib Joe]

Then how did Glock ship the E series recalls direct to the customers? They all had different serial numbers.

The E series recall added a "1" prefix before the serial number. If in fact they shipped them directly back to customers it may be that adding the "1" was considered a restamp or variance by the Feds. Dunno. We processed quite a few of those here at no charge.

[onebohemian]

Federal law allows the manufacturer to ship the (new) replaced or (old) repaired gun directly to you

A replacement firearm can only be shipped directly back to the owner if the same serial number as the original is used (a re-stamp). Manufacturers will rarely do this. Otherwise a NICS check will be required for a newly serialized gun.

Cite to the federal law that has this re-stamp language/differentiation, please?

[Squib Joe]

Federal law allows the manufacturer to ship the (new) replaced or (old) repaired gun directly to you

A replacement firearm can only be shipped directly back to the owner if the same serial number as the original is used (a re-stamp). Manufacturers will rarely do this. Otherwise a NICS check will be required for a newly serialized gun.

Cite to the federal law that has this re-stamp language/differentiation, please?

The same statute you cited: 27 CFR 478.124 (b) and (c)

"A licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer shall retain in alphabetical (by name of purchaser), chronological (by date of disposition), or numerical (by transaction serial number) order, and as a part of the required records, each Form 4473 obtained in the course of transferring custody of the firearms."

"Prior to making an over-the-counter transfer of a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer so transferring the firearm shall obtain a Form 4473 from the transferee showing the transferee's name, sex, residence address (including county or similar political subdivision), date and place of birth; height, weight and race of the transferee; the transferee's country of citizenship; the transferee's INS-issued alien number or admission number; the transferee's State of residence; and certification by the transferee that the transferee is not prohibited by the Act from transporting or shipping a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce or receiving a firearm which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce or possessing a firearm in or affecting commerce."

A Form 4473 is required for each and every serial number going out. If a gun goes out, to anyone other than a FFL licensee, somebody needs to have a 4473 that can be produced upon demand.

Now - there are ATF Rulings that you would think reinforce the idea that a replacement gun with new serial number can go directly to the owner of the gun:

ATF Rul. 76-25 states that the replacement firearm has to be of the same kind and type - but nothing about serial numbers. I know the field office has been asked about this more than once, and typically the reasoning is that 76-25 would apply except for this part "a Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record, shall not be required to record the disposition of a replacement firearm of the same kind and type where the firearm is delivered by the licensee to the person from whom the malfunctioning or damaged firearm was received." Transfer and disposition of a new firearm into a bound book requires knowing who you are transferring to, which isn't possible through a carrier.

And here is the problem. If I were a crook, and I send in a stolen firearm with a broken frame and say my name is John Doe, they would then be send me a newly minted gun with a new serial number and record it in their books as being sold to John Doe. They don't know who you are. Down the road a trace could still be done on the firearm, but it would be very difficult to prove that I was ever owned the original stolen firearm. Call it firearms laundering

[crbutler]

I have had folks deal with it both ways. I think it depends on the manufacturer.

I had a Win model 70 that they sent me a "new" one, and I had to go through the FFL check, etc. although the company did it free of charge.

I have had a couple of shotguns that they just mailed me the new one with a different serial number. ( Benelli, Beretta, and Remington)

The way it was explained to me is that the manufacturer needs to keep records of replacement guns, and if its too big of a hassle to them, they just send it to an FFL and pay for the transfer. I think it has to do more with someone's (at the ATF branch office) interpretation of the regs than the regs themselves.

[Squib Joe]

I think it has to do more with someone's (at the ATF branch office) interpretation of the regs than the regs themselves.

I'm really surprised THAT would ever happen

[onebohemian]

I know that S&W directly replaced an out-of-spec AR15 lower with a different serial numbered new lower a few years back. No FFL required. UPS returned to the owner the entire rifle with new lower affixed.

Because "same kind and type" is not defined to include in addition to "kind and type" same serial number, and no writing exists from the ATF or Congress that expressly requires this, it ought not be read into the statute or regs by any manufacturer. If a manufacturer replacing an under-warranty gun wants to jump through extra hoops to return to the owner the repaired or replaced product so some parade of possible horribles involving a crook returning for replacement a broken stolen gun doesn't happen, so be it, but that is not good practice. Such conduct by one or a few manufacturers should not be used as proof of what the law actually is. There are already more than enough restrictions on gun use and transfer. We need not be making up more on our own by reading the laws too narrowly, reading something into the laws that isn't already there, or interpreting the law differently depending on the circumstances presented. My two cents.

[grousemaster]

I have had folks deal with it both ways. I think it depends on the manufacturer.

I had a Win model 70 that they sent me a "new" one, and I had to go through the FFL check, etc. although the company did it free of charge.

I have had a couple of shotguns that they just mailed me the new one with a different serial number. ( Benelli, Beretta, and Remington)

The way it was explained to me is that the manufacturer needs to keep records of replacement guns, and if its too big of a hassle to them, they just send it to an FFL and pay for the transfer. I think it has to do more with someone's (at the ATF branch office) interpretation of the regs than the regs themselves.

You've had to have replacements from all these companies? Yea right.

[plblark]

Some people have been shooting a lot longer than others, do more shooting, or are more demanding and perfectionist in their choices and equipment issues. Until it gets ridiculous or the stories get self contradictory, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Squib Joe]

If a manufacturer replacing an under-warranty gun wants to jump through extra hoops to return to the owner the repaired or replaced product so some parade of possible horribles involving a crook returning for replacement a broken stolen gun doesn't happen, so be it, but that is not good practice.

Jumping through hoops is good practice if a manufacturer doesn't want to lose their license, as happened to Armalite (TWICE) when they failed to transfer guns properly. Not all of it makes sense, but I don't blame them.