Red Dots on Handguns

[crbutler]

One thing about red dots on handguns-

They all pretty much are higher above the bore axis than the iron sights are.

Yes, they are used on open division pistols in IPSC/USPSA and some other gun game sports. However, if you have never shot those games, it is somewhat interesting watching someone who is new to them trying to use a red dot gun. They sometimes find the dot and are using it great, and sometimes they stand there for 5-10 seconds looking for the dot.

Part of the reason the cmores are popular is they are one of the few red dots that are bright enough that they don't wash out in bright sunlight. The old optimas were notorious for that.

It takes lots of time to develop the muscle memory and be in the right position with them so that they are as fast as a set of irons.

The closer to bore axis the dot is, the easier it is for someone who is used to iron handgun sights to use it. That is the real reason for all the cut outs on the slides on guns with the dot sights. With long guns, you set the sight up so that it is in the right spot for the cheek weld to put your eye at the proper line up spot- makes them easy to use that way, and the whole sight height issue is moot there. Pistols, you have no physical reference, and any inconsistency in your firing stance will make the sight effectively useless to you.

Personally, I think rails are ugly, but if they work for you they are good then. I also think interchangeability with your optics is a bit silly- you are going to have to resight it each time you put it on a different gun (and you really ought to recheck your zero when you reattach a "return to zero" type mount as well even if it is zeroed to the gun. I have seen them do some pretty strange things occasionally) and most red dots are a bit tricky to zero.

The nice thing about the RDS are that you can concentrate on the target rather than on the front sight- optical planes and all that. They do promote situational awareness and can make shooting multiple targets in a string much faster. The down side is unless you are using a very small dot, precision can be iffy. (and the small dot costs you the speed advantage that the RDS gives you.)

Red dots can really allow someone whose eyesight has degenerated the ability to shoot handguns accurately again. They also require much more maintenance than a set of iron sights do. If you are putting it on a defensive weapon of any sort, you had better be willing to do the maintenance, put in the familiarization time and recheck the zero periodically, otherwise, you can really have your rear hanging out there.

As an example, I put away one of my open guns (with a cmore) for the winter a few years back, and a match came up before I had the time to go and check the zero the following spring. A gun that had been dead on all the sudden was shooting 4" to the left at 15 yards. Not huge, but caused some issues- but that was an IPSC match not a real life situation....

[UnaStamus]

There are different grades and designs of RDS geared towards pistol use. I've seen some mounted with an Aimpoint Micro, but most are being mounted now with the MRDS options like the RMR, DeltaPoint and so forth. The key is that you need to reliable optic that can take the punishment, and you need something that is adjustable so that you can nullify any washout that occurs (typical of dual-illumination sights).

Competition and hobby use are growing, but the real market for pistol-mounted RDS systems is in the tactical realm. Within the next 10 years, we'll likely see a major upswing in local, state and federal agencies using these systems on a day-to-day basis.

[msnden]

Well,, Why not???

[TTS]

Well,, Why not???

I love it!

Does that make pocket carry hard?

[Ranger01]

There are different grades and designs of RDS geared towards pistol use. I've seen some mounted with an Aimpoint Micro, but most are being mounted now with the MRDS options like the RMR, DeltaPoint and so forth. The key is that you need to reliable optic that can take the punishment, and you need something that is adjustable so that you can nullify any washout that occurs (typical of dual-illumination sights).

Competition and hobby use are growing, but the real market for pistol-mounted RDS systems is in the tactical realm. Within the next 10 years, we'll likely see a major upswing in local, state and federal agencies using these systems on a day-to-day basis.

Sure they are the "big thing" in the tactical ninja classes right now, but they aren't ever going to catch on for serious use (outside of a few specific uses) due to them being succeptable to rain/ mud/ snow/ etc obscuring the emitter, and in a sandy/dusty environment the lenses can become etched again causing problems

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=4096

[LumberZach]

There are different grades and designs of RDS geared towards pistol use. I've seen some mounted with an Aimpoint Micro, but most are being mounted now with the MRDS options like the RMR, DeltaPoint and so forth. The key is that you need to reliable optic that can take the punishment, and you need something that is adjustable so that you can nullify any washout that occurs (typical of dual-illumination sights).

Competition and hobby use are growing, but the real market for pistol-mounted RDS systems is in the tactical realm. Within the next 10 years, we'll likely see a major upswing in local, state and federal agencies using these systems on a day-to-day basis.

Sure they are the "big thing" in the tactical ninja classes right now, but they aren't ever going to catch on for serious use (outside of a few specific uses) due to them being succeptable to rain/ mud/ snow/ etc obscuring the emitter, and in a sandy/dusty environment the lenses can become etched again causing problems

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=4096

I couldn't disagree more. Just look how far red dots have actually come in the last 10 years. I don't know what shooting was like firsthand "back in the day" but everyone runs red dot on rifles now and a lot of shotguns as well. As technology progresses so will the optics. There may be a few people that won't trust them, but like on a rifle a RDS makes shooting easier and faster, pistols will as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TTS]

There are different grades and designs of RDS geared towards pistol use. I've seen some mounted with an Aimpoint Micro, but most are being mounted now with the MRDS options like the RMR, DeltaPoint and so forth. The key is that you need to reliable optic that can take the punishment, and you need something that is adjustable so that you can nullify any washout that occurs (typical of dual-illumination sights).

Competition and hobby use are growing, but the real market for pistol-mounted RDS systems is in the tactical realm. Within the next 10 years, we'll likely see a major upswing in local, state and federal agencies using these systems on a day-to-day basis.

Sure they are the "big thing" in the tactical ninja classes right now, but they aren't ever going to catch on for serious use (outside of a few specific uses) due to them being succeptable to rain/ mud/ snow/ etc obscuring the emitter, and in a sandy/dusty environment the lenses can become etched again causing problems

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=4096

I couldn't disagree more. Just look how far red dots have actually come in the last 10 years. I don't know what shooting was like firsthand "back in the day" but everyone runs red dot on rifles now and a lot of shotguns as well. As technology progresses so will the optics. There may be a few people that won't trust them, but like on a rifle a RDS makes shooting easier and faster, pistols will as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed! All of these same problems exist with RDS equipped rifles and they are ubiquitous. Mud and Snow can make iron sights just as unusable.

[Erik_Pakieser]

Shot some RDS equipped pistols at SHOT Show this year. I liked them, but I just can't justify the cost. I've run the numbers over several options and there are just a lot of other things I would spend that much money on.

I think this trend will continue, and I'll be interested to see how the technology develops.

[crbutler]

The technology has progressed a lot already.

I wasn't in in the beginning of the IPSC red dot craze, but joined fairly quickly thereafter.

The old beer can red dots worked some of the time.

The newer beer cans worked more often but were heavy and prompted the good Col. Cooper to disavow them. This also caused issues with portability and damaging frames due to the weight and recoil.

The Holosight came out and was then the cat's azz. You could then cowitness irons with a rifle set up right (read M16 type set up)

Then came the Cmore- a lot lighter, but had (and still does to some extent) real issues with repeatable adjustments.

The next big jump was the optima, which is somewhat bigger than a rear sight, but not distressingly so. It was weak and hard to adjust initially, and battery life sucked. That has gradually improved.

The next jump was Trijicon coming up with a way to use tritium inserts so that you no longer needed a battery for a dot sight, but it was a scope/beer can again.

Due to weak dot issues, trijicon ended up going to battery or fiber optic assist.

More recently, they came up with a miniature sight (the RMR) which is the same size as the optima and its cousins.

I think its a reasonably mature technology now. I feel comfortable putting a red dot (RMR) on my .470 double. There may be some incremental improvements, but they work now. The only issue again is that to use them on a handgun is a matter of the user needing much more training to use them quickly and efficiently than you did with a set of iron sights.

[Ranger01]

I couldn't disagree more. Just look how far red dots have actually come in the last 10 years. I don't know what shooting was like firsthand "back in the day" but everyone runs red dot on rifles now and a lot of shotguns as well. As technology progresses so will the optics. There may be a few people that won't trust them, but like on a rifle a RDS makes shooting easier and faster, pistols will as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed! All of these same problems exist with RDS equipped rifles and they are ubiquitous. Mud and Snow can make iron sights just as unusable.

True, but in an actual "operational environment" a sidearm is usually on a hip or dropleg rig out in the open (or occasionally on a PC). This leads to a much higher chance of crap getting into the emitter and/or screwing the lens (note the "cup of water" HY speaks of in the article I posted. Also, personally, if I were in that situation, I'd rather know my sidearm isn't going to be down when I need it due to the optic being trashed or blocked/ obscured (or dead batteries). Admittedly this is less of an issue for a carry gun than a sidearm for a professional.

If they can fix the blocked emitter issues, and make the batteries last longer then I could see them becoming more common place. But I still doubt many pros are going to use them due to the issues I've listed. Yes, I've read rumors about certain groups trying out MRDS equipped sidearms, but then again, they try out a lot of things they don't stick with (see the HK Mk.23 as one example).

[TTS]

I agree that if my pistol is backup to my rifle, I would probably take iron sites only.

Battery life is a non-issue, 2 years on the RMR02. I'd still change the battery once a year, plus you should have BUIS.

I would love to see something that uses Holosight technology in a MRDS, that would fix the emitter issue... but may be too much of a drain on the batteries.

The technology still isn't perfected, but the wrinkles should be ironed out in the next few years.

[UnaStamus]

MRDS use on pistols wasn't just a test for SOF units. It's in operational use right now by numerous Tier One teams. The Safariland 6354DO holster was designed specifically for a SOF unit using them operationally. This is just the tip of the iceberg, though. The mounted MRDS has been in use by numerous LE personnel nationwide for a couple years now. Most been using Safariland SLS holsters modified with a Dremel.
It's far from a trend at this point. The same thing you said is the same thing people were saying 10 years ago about RDS systems on rifles. People were worried about batteries, fogging, etc. Now we're in a place where we rarely think about using a rifle without some kind of optic. An MRDS has numerous advantages, especially when you work operationally behind a bunker (ballistic shield). There are ways to mitigate the problems, like glass sealant and anti-fog treatment to shed moisture and dirt.

Is it a perfect system? No. However, this is the future for pistols. Not every pistol needs one, but it has a definite place in future use in a very broad spectrum of applications. It's already being used, and it's only going to continue to grow. I don't expect most people to know the extent to which it's already in use, but my supposition that this is only getting bigger is by no means an original thought. This is coming from a lot of cops and military personnel, and high level trainers. Most high level trainers are starting to get these pistols because they are showing up more and more at courses, with many users being professional/operational users. This includes trainers like Steve Fisher, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzalez, Jason Falla, John McPhee, etc.

[Rem700]

Looking at this for EDC
Ageing eyes means glasses and bifocals, Lasik not a option.
A low mounted RMR looks like it would fit in most edc holsters and doesn't appear like it would really print much if anything extra.
Cover garment should take care of most rain, snow, mud.
BUIS should help in the event of battery failure or
Tritium/fiberoptic instead of battery but read of washout and lowlight not being great.

Just looking to weigh the pros and cons

[TTS]

Looking at this for EDC
Ageing eyes means glasses and bifocals, Lasik not a option.
A low mounted RMR looks like it would fit in most edc holsters and doesn't appear like it would really print much if anything extra.
Cover garment should take care of most rain, snow, mud.
BUIS should help in the event of battery failure or
Tritium/fiberoptic instead of battery but read of washout and lowlight not being great.

Just looking to weigh the pros and cons

I would be happy to meet up at the range some time for you to try mine out.

I think the washout is over rated... if your dot is washed out you have plenty of light for your BUIS.

[Rem700]

[/quote]

I would be happy to meet up at the range some time for you to try mine out.

I think the washout is over rated... if your dot is washed out you have plenty of light for your BUIS.[/quote]




I may just have to take you up on this.
Do you frequent any of the local ranges?