Longer barreled ar pistol legality

[Vashjir]

So I'm building a sb-15 ar pistol for mostly one handed use and have a few questions as to what components might run afoul of state or federal law.

First off, this is not intended as a barely legal sbr. I have very limited use of my right arm and hope this will be a way for me to use the ar platform comfortably and safely with my disability.

So here are my 'requirements':
1) Must be light. I will be shooting this one handed most of the time so a full rifle length barrel is out.
2) Must be reliable and fairly accurate. That means a barrel of at least 10.5" from what I've read.
3) I would like the ability to attach a vertical fore grip so it's possible to hold two handed (my right hand cannot grip a normal handguard or 'heat shield' but can hold a VFG)

Its my understanding that a firearm of more than 26" OAL is not considered a pistol by mn or the feds for the purposes of attaching a VFG, but is it still considered a pistol such that a 11.5 or 12" barrel is legal? Would there be a different legal status if I used a 14.5" barrel w' pinned flashhider? It certainly wouldn't be concealable either way.
Also one of the vendors at the mwca show in buffalo mentioned that a 12" or longer barrel would also disqualify the firearm as a legal pistol in mn, but I've also heard pistols have no max barrel length, anyone with insight?

[Randygmn]

So I'm building a sb-15 ar pistol for mostly one handed use and have a few questions as to what components might run afoul of state or federal law.

First off, this is not intended as a barely legal sbr. I have very limited use of my right arm and hope this will be a way for me to use the ar platform comfortably and safely with my disability.

So here are my 'requirements':
1) Must be light. I will be shooting this one handed most of the time so a full rifle length barrel is out.
2) Must be reliable and fairly accurate. That means a barrel of at least 10.5" from what I've read.
3) I would like the ability to attach a vertical fore grip so it's possible to hold two handed (my right hand cannot grip a normal handguard or 'heat shield' but can hold a VFG)

Its my understanding that a firearm of more than 26" OAL is not considered a pistol by mn or the feds for the purposes of attaching a VFG, but is it still considered a pistol such that a 11.5 or 12" barrel is legal? Would there be a different legal status if I used a 14.5" barrel w' pinned flashhider? It certainly wouldn't be concealable either way.
Also one of the vendors at the mwca show in buffalo mentioned that a 12" or longer barrel would also disqualify the firearm as a legal pistol in mn, but I've also heard pistols have no max barrel length, anyone with insight?

First of all, make sure your lower was built as a pistol, was always a pistol or built from virgin parts. It can never have been a rifle. Also, a VFG is a no go on a pistol as it becomes an AOW. You can go with an AFG, though. Better buy the brace soon. Sig is replacing the sb-15 this fall with one that won't work as well as the old one with true one-handed performance, fwiw

[Vashjir]

I already got the sb15 from a member here, and I am starting with a virgin stripped lower reciever.

What's the difference in legality between the angled grip and a vertical one? the clear purpose of both would appear to be the same (provide a better grip with a second hand) so I would think their legal status would be the same. Would a folding fore grip or a collapsable bipod like this carry a different legal standing? The AFG might work as a place to hook in my index finger, but I can't rotate my right wrist enough to use one as intended.

Also regarding the firearm being an AOW, I thought that only mattered if its OAL was under 26" or the weapon is 'concealable'. Over the 26" OAL I thought it became a normal class 1 firearm.

I'm also totally new to this building firearms stuff so please forgive/correct any ignorance.

[TTS]

I already got the sb15 from a member here, and I am starting with a virgin stripped lower reciever.

What's the difference in legality between the angled grip and a vertical one? the clear purpose of both would appear to be the same (provide a better grip with a second hand) so I would think their legal status would be the same. Would a folding fore grip or a collapsable bipod like this carry a different legal standing? The AFG might work as a place to hook in my index finger, but I can't rotate my right wrist enough to use one as intended.

Also regarding the firearm being an AOW, I thought that only mattered if its OAL was under 26" or the weapon is 'concealable'. Over the 26" OAL I thought it became a normal class 1 firearm.

I'm also totally new to this building firearms stuff so please forgive/correct any ignorance.

You are correct that over 26" is is not a pistol and can have a VFG, check AR15.com for the ATF letter about this. An AFG is ok on a pistol per another ATF letter, don't ask for reasoning... the ATF aren't very logical.

For the folding foregrip or bipod.... you can send a letter to the ATF tech branch and ask for a ruling.


ETA Links -

Over 26" ruling:
http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

AFG Ruling:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx/edit?hl=en

VFG Ruling:
https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/041006-openletter-nfa-adding-vertical-fore-grip.html

[Randygmn]

If the OAL is greater than 26", a VFG is ok. I misunderstood your original question thinking it was on a pistol. Keep in mind, it will no longer be classified as a pistol. It is now a "firearm". I'm not sure what restrictions would be in place. As an example, with my AR pistol, I could carry it on my person or in a backpack. I can also carry it in my car, loaded. I can also carry it across state lines in places that honor my permit to carry. You will have to check to see if this is a pistol or rifle as it pertains to our state laws.

Mailing a formal letter to the ATF is the way to go. Nothing beats having the rulings your after to be address specifically to you.

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, WV 25405

I seem to recall reading that a bipod is ok on any length, but you will need to clarify that. A folding grip once extended is a VFG, and those rules apply. Can't make rhyme or reason of the ATF rulings myself. I once read that a hand stop is not allowed on a pistol, yet the AFG, which has a hand stop integrated, is ok.

[FJ540]

26"+ might get you in trouble if using it in a shotgun zone for deer. Might want to ask your local game warden for their take on it (via email so you have a record).

[OldmanFCSA]

My opinion has been edited or deleted.

[george]

Your going to want to keep it in the pistol length, if you run to long you may touch on the SBR category, another can of worms. My 10 1/2" barrel runs right at the limit w/o the break.

[TTS]

Your going to want to keep it in the pistol length, if you run to long you may touch on the SBR category, another can of worms. My 10 1/2" barrel runs right at the limit w/o the break.

Can you please explain? An SBR only becomes an issue if a stock is attached.

[yuppiejr]

Based on the information I've gathered from published ATF regs and letters clarifying their policies regarding AR pistols & accessories here's what I've derived: Overall length for pistol vs firearm classification is measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel (threaded or not), a muzzle device only counts if it's permanently attached. A SIG brace or cane tip also do not count toward this OAL as they are not permanently attached. As long as the pistol remains under 26" overall using the measurement points above it remains a legal handgun and could be used to hunt when/where a pistol/handgun are legal for taking big game assuming it meets the minimum caliber requirements. A Magpul AFG is perfectly legal on an AR pistol of any barrel length, there's no way that I'm aware of to attach a VFG (which requires an overall length greater than 26") and retain the firearm's status as a "handgun/pistol" making it legal to hunt with in a MN shotgun zone.

My 6.8 SPC upper with a 10.5" barrel attached to a lower wearing a Phase 5 pistol buffer tube (SIG brace removed) comes in at just under 25" to the end of the threaded muzzle, exactly 26" with an A1 flash hider installed. Weight wise the setup is no lighter than my full size AR rifles at 6-7 pounds with optics, but it is less nose heavy than even light profile rifle barrels particularly with the brace installed. Velocities should be about 150-200 FPS slower than advertised 16" barrel velocity from most commercial ammo manufacturers which should keep you at or above 1000 ft/lbs at 200 yards with most factory loads which is plenty for deer hunting.

[george]

Your going to want to keep it in the pistol length, if you run to long you may touch on the SBR category, another can of worms. My 10 1/2" barrel runs right at the limit w/o the break.

Can you please explain? An SBR only becomes an issue if a stock is attached.

As you stated earlier,

[quoteYou are correct that over 26" is is not a pistol and can have a VFG, check AR15.com for the ATF letter about this. An AFG is ok on a pistol per another ATF letter, don't ask for reasoning... the ATF aren't very logical.
]

[/quote]
I believe if you are caught with something in violation you will have multiple charges and see witch ones stick, it's also unlikely to get caught but if one is.
A few of us use to put VFG on our PLR16's(It works so well) until one got caught at a different range and asked for the tax stamp, not no more.
It never costs them anything to issue whatever comes to there mind, it only costs you to defend yourself. Keep in mind the lower is only a other on the 4473,
it's not a pistol or rifle so if it's not a pistol because of OAL and is under 16" barrel, who knows what the ATF will decide. I always say think the worst and hope for the best.

[yuppiejr]

I believe if you are caught with something in violation you will have multiple charges and see witch ones stick, it's also unlikely to get caught but if one is.
A few of us use to put VFG on our PLR16's(It works so well) until one got caught at a different range and asked for the tax stamp, not no more.
It never costs them anything to issue whatever comes to there mind, it only costs you to defend yourself. Keep in mind the lower is only a other on the 4473,
it's not a pistol or rifle so if it's not a pistol because of OAL and is under 16" barrel, who knows what the ATF will decide. I always say think the worst and hope for the best.

The ATF has both published guidelines and letters of clarification that give good information on these topics to avoid getting legally crosswise, though it takes some research to nail down all of the rules... I would suggest carrying the pertinent regulations and ATF letters in printed form with the firearm and be prepared to demonstrate compliance of a given configuration if asked by a DNR agent, range owner or law enforcement officer.

Pistol/Handgun: under 26" overall; no stock (foam pad/cane pad/SIG brace are not stocks), no vertical foregrip... in an AR platform rifle this effectively (not explicitly) limits maximum barrel length to 10-11.5" depending on how other components impact the OAL of your pistol. This is the only legal configuration that can be used to hunt in any zone during MN big game firearm seasons. The ATF has indicated firing such a pistol while the buffer tube, SIG brace or similar is stabilized against the shoulder does not alter the firearm's classification. You can carry/transport an AR pistol in the same manner you would any other handgun covered by your MN Permit to Carry.

Firearm : over 26" overall and you can install a VFG (no stock rule still applies), no limit on barrel length within the technical limitations of the platform's gas system/dwell time requirements... it's also not considered a "rifle" and therefore an SBR stamp is not required if the barrel is under 16". Because it's no longer a "pistol" or "handgun" per ATF classification you're crosswise DNR regulations in MN if you hunt with it outside of a rifle zone. As it's not a "pistol/handgun" your MN Carry Permit doesn't apply to this type of firearm so carry and transportation requirements are similar to a rifle or shotgun.

[Vashjir]

Thanks for all the info guys! Sounds like I have to decide between the ergonomic conveniences available on a 26"+ 'firearm' or the relaxed hunting/carry restrictions on a sub 26" 'pistol'. Since this is going to be a .223/5.56 caliber range gun and private land plinker (not a hunting or carry piece) I'm leaning towards the 26"+ option.

[Vashjir]

Scratch that, I found the soultion I've been looking for in this. It should fit my anderson milspec lower fine, and is atf ok'd for use on a pistol w/o changing it's classification. That way I can go with the more commonly available 10.5" lower, and enjoy the benefits of pistol hunting if I decide to get an upper in an appropriate caliber, while still being able to shoot comfortably in multiple positions. The shorter distance to the grip will be nice as well since my right arm is a bit shorter than normal too.

[Randygmn]

Great choice. I love the mako magwell grip as well as their pistol grip. I run both on my 300blk pistol. I will mention though, that it was designed around the colt receiver, which means that some receivers might make installation challenging. As you know, some seams and protrusions are different, so out of the box fitment isn't guaranteed. I've read many stories where a Dremel is required to alter. I was lucky, mine fit on the advanced armament lower out of the box.