2 inch snubby

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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby crbutler on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:46 pm

Some do, some don't.

The guy high on PCP reacts differently (generally) than the guy who is stone cold sober.

The only absolute is as FJ says, CNS for immediate immobilization, and actually it's only a near absolute. A major bone hit in an arm or leg will have more effect with a 45 than a .38. A peripheral soft tissue hit (skin and fat) neither will do much physiologically, but the psychological can make it a one shot stop...but I would not bet my life on it.

Taylors formula has a lot of issues, been there, done that. It only is relevant to head shot elephant. Momentum plus frontal area... don't work for beans with heart shot cape buff.

More energy is better, assuming placement is identical, but placement trumps energy as long as a minimal threshold is met.

With the OP, looking at the picture, that barrel is effectively shorter than 2" with the porting, but frankly, at self defence ranges, it is over that bottom threshold. My experience with snubbies and chronographing was that there is substantial velocity loss, but the .357 mag loads that did 1400+ out of the 4" gun were still hypersonic out of a 2" barrel. This is with colt pythons. Usually around 1200 fps (using 158 jhp's with heavy, now over max Viht N110 loads, they were book max then). Lots of shock and awe, though... I never played a lot with .38 standard loading back then, so I cannot say what those did.
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby farmerj on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:50 pm

let's go to the range and chronograph
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby NinjaMonkey on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:55 pm

Thanks for all the feed back
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby Pat Cannon on Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:43 pm

NinjaMonkey wrote:Thanks for all the feed back

WAIT WE'RE NOT DONE YET! :)
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby FJ540 on Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:53 pm

Pat Cannon wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:Thanks for all the feed back

WAIT WE'RE NOT DONE YET! :)


Yeah, NM managed to find this forum's pulse. Don't let it go back to sleep too soon. :lol:
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:19 pm

Dang, did I miss out on a good internet argument today?

Everyone knows that the 14.5 Whisper is the minimum for a self defense round.
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby smurfman on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:26 am

Another thing about Taylor's TKO formula that many do not consider is it is applicable to non-expanding bullets, not expanding. The main idea behind it was to predict how long an elephant would be knocked out by a hit in the head but did not reach the brain. A secondary use was to estimate how effective a given bullet cartridge combo would be on elephant or other very large game. Another factor to consider in calculations is it favors flat nose bullets over round nose with added "points" being given to larger meplats.

As to the stopping power of a 500 S&W compared to about anything else, I may be the only person here to have first hand experience to someone shot with this round. About 2006 we were dispatched to a shooting. Upon arriving, the victim was found slumped on the basement floor in front of the utility sink. He had been shot once through the right lung. Aid was administered and the victim was taken to the nearest Level ! trauma center where he died in surgery less than an hour later.

The background in the shooting was the victim was shot by a family member when the victim refused to stop knocking on the door during a drunken argument. The bullet went through a 1950's solid pine door of about an inch thick, hit the victim in the right chest, and then exited the victim as well as the outside wall. Needless to say, the bullet was not found.

After realizing he had been shot, the victim yelled out to the family member and then turned around, walked several feet to the stairs, went down two flights of stairs to the main floor, walked most the 30'+ length of the house, down another flight of stairs to the basement, crossed another 20 some feet to the sink, and then fell to the floor after turning on the water and beginning to wash up. During this time 911 had been called. It took several minutes for the police to secure the scene, another several minutes to package the victim for transport and get him to the ambulance, and about 10 minutes to get to the hospital.

The victim was able to ambulate for a half minute, maybe more, after being shot before growing too weak to remain on his feet. This incident is not a ringing endorsement for the 500 S&W as a man stopper though I would not volunteer to be shot with one any more than I would to be shot with a 25 ACP.

This is a sample size of one so is not statistically accurate but it is what I personally experienced. It is an anecdotal example that foot pounds of energy is not the be all end all some think and that more depends on bullet placement and to a lesser extent, the damage caused. In the above case, the bullet appeared to have acted much like a solid in that there was not much damage going in or out, even after penetrating an old solid pine door.

I have seen a few of the other side of the coin too, "weak" options killing rapidly due to shot placement. From the examples I have seen and what I have seen/read from other sources, I have come away with the opinion that shot placement key and that there is not only a "minimum" standard that a cartridge has to meet but there is also a "maximum" in which anything more has diminishing affects. Not that the latter becomes less lethal but that the benefits are not as noticeable as one would think.
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby Ghost on Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:34 am

Smurfman, would the guy in your example have been able to continue to be an aggressor? I would think agggressive actions would have sped his final fate.

Also I believe Sam was mentioning the short 500 as inadequate for big bears, not humans.
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby farmerj on Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:40 am

Amazi wrote:
have you seen the 500 s&w round? It makes my 50ae look small. You get hit in the arm with a 50 you'll be a cripple in the arm, leg you'll defiantly never walk right again if your able to. Like I said you reference to a 50cal to a 9mm is not a very good one.



Yes, I have shot the .500 S&W. Even the .454 casull.

I'm more impressed by the .454 than I am the .500.

But your assumptions are still wrong.
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby Squib Joe on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:19 am

Nobody has brought up hydrostatic shock yet.

Image
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby yukonjasper on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:26 am

Short of a central nervous system hit, rapid blood loss is the only thing that will stop a determinal attacker regardless of species. Penatration and wound chanel. A 2" barrel is a compromise to increase carryability that decreases effectiveness.

ETA
and hydrostatic shock :D
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby farmerj on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:42 am

Squib Joe wrote:Nobody has brought up hydrostatic shock yet.

Image



cuz we all know you'll fly back when you get shot.

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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby Hmac on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:23 am

Interesting to compare the "terminal ballistics" discussions here, compared to other forums and blogs where guys like Molon Labe or DocGKR (Dr. Gary Roberts) discuss their observations. The level of ballistics expertise here is.....interesting.

I carry a 642 shooting .38 Special only when concealability demands require it. I hate that ******* little gun, but it's better than nothing, as long as one accepts the fact that beyond about 7 yards, it's worthless.
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby farmerj on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:24 am

Hmac wrote:Interesting to compare the "terminal ballistics" discussions here, compared to other forums and blogs where guys like Molon Labe or DocGKR (Dr. Gary Roberts) discuss their observations. The level of ballistics expertise here is.....interesting.

I carry a 642 shooting .38 Special only when concealability demands require it. I hate that ******* little gun, but it's better than nothing, as long as one accepts the fact that beyond about 7 yards, it's worthless.


Sorry to disappoint you.

I'll start working on my Doctoral dissertation for you and have the peer review completed for you by noon today. Will that make you happy?
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Re: 2 inch snubby

Postby Hmac on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:37 am

farmerj wrote:Sorry to disappoint you.

I'll start working on my Doctoral dissertation for you and have the peer review completed for you by noon today. Will that make you happy?


Unlikely.
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