To Sight or not to Sight

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To Sight or not to Sight

Postby VikesFan1 on Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:32 pm

Something in another topic got me thinking... Do you use your gun sights when practicing defensive shooting , or no sights?

I ask because I caught a video in which the trainer was telling his students they HAD to learn to shoot with both eyes open. I didn't catch his reasoning but it seems to make sense for a couple of different reasons. Anyway, I've been doing it and I'm really liking the results.

So is there a general consensus on this?

Forgive me if this is common knowledge. My only formal gun training was Firearms Safety in the 6th grade and my CCW class, admittedly. The rest is just trial and error, with bits & pieces of "free lessons" from instructors in adjacent lanes mixed in. :D
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby goalie on Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:13 pm

With a handgun, even aimed fire should use both eyes. Closing an eye in a stressful situation only increases tunnel vision.

Which eye is your dominant eye? I am left-eye dominant, and I hold my head a little different than most people because I have a right-handed grip on my handguns when shooting. If I held my head in the "normal" position, I would have to close my dominant (left) eye to get a good sight picture.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby jaysong on Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:32 pm

I agree with goalie, except I recommend teaching new shooters to shut one eye to have less to do, and aid in the hard focus on that front sight. Once trigger control while maintaining sight alignment are down pat then work on focusing the dominant eye on the front sight with both eyes open. Once that they get that down go to a draw and point in on the target eyes closed and then look to see where the front sight is. With practice the front sight should be on the target. As I mentioned in another post I have been reading about how one should no longer need to use the sights once this level of skill and natural aim is mastered. So in theory you only need the front sight to confirm you are doing things correctly and would be allowed to focus on the target if you desired to.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby monschman on Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:55 pm

sights on a defensive handgun?????
o.k. maybe a front one, mabe, seriously though I would encourage everyone to learn to not rely on your sights for defensive purposes. I spent a lot of time being taught how to shoot and practicing the same sans the aid of sights, and it is actually not the most difficult thing in the world to hit center mass at 25-30 feet by point and shoot.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby Vlad on Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:11 pm

In talking to a few folks, I have come to the conclusion that the first shot in a defensive situation is when you clear the holster and keep firing as you bring the gun into your line of eyesight and the third or fourth shot, depending on what school you go to, is where you focus on the sights.

That being said, I do practice instinctive shooting with my J frame and LCP with the targets from 3 to 7 yards. Trying hard to stay COM in a controlled but efficient manner.
I also do with my 1911s but tend to do that practice at further distances and use the sights a bit more. I do agree with shooting with both eyes open.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby VikesFan1 on Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:14 pm

Thanks fellas! A little confirmation is all I needed. Driving tacks through the sights is only so fun. 8-)

It sounds like, and seems like, practice practice practice is the name of the game. ..Like anything else I guess. :D
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby goalie on Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:11 pm

monschman wrote:sights on a defensive handgun?????
o.k. maybe a front one, mabe, seriously though I would encourage everyone to learn to not rely on your sights for defensive purposes. I spent a lot of time being taught how to shoot and practicing the same sans the aid of sights, and it is actually not the most difficult thing in the world to hit center mass at 25-30 feet by point and shoot.
Allrighty then i know have my flame suit on so fire away everyone (no pun intended)


It depends on whether or not Mr Center Mass is shooting back at you.

Anyhow, anyone that relies completely and totally on either "point-and-shoot" or "well-aimed" fire isn't really going to be prepared for what Mr Murphy throws at him when the time comes. The more tools you have in the bag, the more likely you'll be able to pull out the right one for the job when the time comes. That's why I can still run 20 miles with a smile on my face: it's the skill/tool most likely to increase my longevity and quality of life.

;)
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby hammAR on Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:21 pm

goalie wrote:That's why I can still run 20 miles with a smile on my face: it's the skill/tool most likely to increase my longevity and quality of life.

;)


Unfortunately not all of us are as prepared or capable,
therefore we need to exercise and hone other skills to equally enable us to increase our longevity and quality of life.......... :cheers:
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby Pinnacle on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:57 am

VikesFan1 wrote:Thanks fellas! A little confirmation is all I needed. Driving tacks through the sights is only so fun. 8-)

It sounds like, and seems like, practice practice practice is the name of the game. ..Like anything else I guess. :D


It is like anything else - if you don't practice forget it - you need to practice. PERIOD. Spend some $$$ on a good class and some ammo instead of another ubershooter. Spend some ime getting in shape as well - a good defense sould ALWAYS contain the high speed retreat option.

You should use your sights - at least the front one for a flash sight picture - but this is not necessarily the only thing to worry about either - trigger control is waaaay up there. You can have all of the good alignment you want without good trigger control - forget it all.

Learn to use your sights first then learn to get tricky with "Point Shooting" or other gimmicks. (I will now don my proximity suit)

Point Shooting is a real cute euphamism for = UNAIMED FIRE (you should remember that until you learn ALL of the Fundamentals of Pistol Shooting and get good using sights FIRST) There is a time and a place for unaimed fire and - well if you are using that "skill" you have just been in the fight of your life and if you liveto tell the tale consider yourself fortunate.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby goalie on Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:37 am

hammAR wrote:
goalie wrote:That's why I can still run 20 miles with a smile on my face: it's the skill/tool most likely to increase my longevity and quality of life.

;)


Unfortunately not all of us are as prepared or capable,
therefore we need to exercise and hone other skills to equally enable us to increase our longevity and quality of life.......... :cheers:


True. The odds are that a long walk or mild exercise every day will do more to increase your longevity and quality of life than being able to "point shoot" will.

I know that I personally have only so much time to train, especially since I would rather spend time with my son that do just about anything else. I also know that a lot of people on here have a lot more free time than I do, and that shooting is their hobby, much like hockey is mine. They probably have the time to actually get good at (and retain, as shooting skills are perishable) the skill of close-distance point shooting, whereas someone like myself is happy to be able to retain through practice the ability to safely draw from concealment and the ability to shoot with either hand.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby hammAR on Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:58 am

Pinnacle wrote:Point Shooting is a real cute euphamism for = UNAIMED FIRE (you should remember that until you learn ALL of the Fundamentals of Pistol Shooting and get good using sights FIRST) There is a time and a place for unaimed fire and - well if you are using that "skill" you have just been in the fight of your life and if you liveto tell the tale consider yourself fortunate.


While I do believe that our first choices should always be ‘Avoid, Disengage and Escape’ whenever possible. Shooting is always the last option form of self-defense… ‘Avoid, Disengage and Escape’ is not always an option.

Besides under attack at extreme close quarters, there is literally no time to focus on the front sight, none, nada. Keep in mind that a ‘threat’ can change into a ‘non-threat’ in an instant, so you’ll need 100% target focus to identify your adversary. By watching the threat, you’ll also be able to see more of what’s going on down range. The more you see, the more you’ll know. This visual input will help make your shooting decisions (which are the most important decisions of your life) faster and easier to make.

The reason for this is the vast majority of street gunfights and home evasions occur at or near contact distance, and usually in low light. So, there is a very good chance you will not be able to push the gun out to full extension or even see the sights…....A Rule of Thumb is this: If you have the time, use the sights. But TIME IS A LUXURY we can’t always afford. Lethal confrontations are usually “time competitive”.

On the street, you must be sure of your target (the threat) and what’s beyond (backstops and bystanders). This is all based upon a fundamental rule of safe shooting. Not only is sighted fire slower than index and point shooting, it teaches people to look at their front sight and NOT identify the target and what’s beyond it.”

“At longer distances, yes, sighted fire is definitely more accurate. But at street combat distances (usually 7 yards and closer), the target is big and closing in on you. Index shooting and point shooting is much faster. Besides, it’s very hard to watch your front sight when shooting at reactionary targets under stress. Your adversary will most likely be moving towards you and require multiple shots to stop. If you punch the gun out to full extension you can get disarmed very easily. You could also have the gun deflected and the shot may not go where you want it to, thus endangering bystanders. The reality is that you may not actually get a chance to use the sights. What we need today is center of mass hits on demand and under stress in REAL TIME while moving. This requires a completely different focus, a completely different mindset and a completely different method of firearms training.

Statistically speaking, the average handgun fight takes place well within 7 yards, so the sights are not nearly as important as indexing and pointing at close range. But the farther you get away, the more important the sight become. With global terrorism on the rise, the dynamics of street survival have forever changed. It’s no longer as simple as just some punk who wants your wallet. It could be a terrorist who wants to take you and your loves ones with him to see Allah, and the time for employing evasion tactics or de-escalation techniques is over. The bottom line is you had better have some good handgun shooting techniques to fall back on.

Besides, guys in the military and those in police work are the most likely people to be involved in an actual street shootout. They have to go into harms way, it’s their job. Civilians, on the other hand, should go out of their way to avoid it. Anyone who says you have to get into a gunfight in order to be qualified to teach is preaching to the gunfighter wannabe types.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby westhope on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:47 am

What hammAR said.

Things just happen too fast and too close.

If you have time to think about your sight picture, you should be moving and thinking about how to get the hell out of there to the nearest cover.

IDPA & IPSC try to provide a variety of scenarios to shoot from, but because of safety and their rules they are limited to what they can do in an organized competition. They are the best I know other than training schools.
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby hammAR on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:03 am

Just to be clear, I am not disagreeing with either Pinnacle or goalie............

Yes, you should be in shape, but that is relative to the person, some due to age, disabilities, or physical limitations are not afforded this option......

Yes, you should master proper gun handling, safety, and shooting fundamentals as a base before you attempt "advanced" old-guy tricks......

that being said....it is a hope that everyone lives a long, happy, and uneventful life......... :cheers:

but sometimes as a civilian, rarely but it does happen, someone turns the blender on........ :doh:
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby goalie on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:10 am

I kind of equate it to the use of the new optics on battle rifles. Yeah, your ACOG will allow you to make longer distance hits faster, but it's never a bad idea to learn the fundamentals before you move on to the other stuff.

Or I equate it to speed. If you are shooting too fast to get good accuracy, you should probably slow down until you can get good accuracy on a consistent basis, then advance the speed of your shooting while maintaining your ability to make good hits.

Walk before you run.

If you can't SHOOT, you probably shouldn't be working on shooting without your sights.

;)
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Re: To Sight or not to Sight

Postby Einthoven's Triangle on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:43 pm

Me thinks and I know that Goalie Nailed it! You have to crawl before you walk, walk before you run, and well you better have invested heavily in practice before getting off the mark.
Till you can put all you shots in the same hole (characterization) you have a long way to go! Basic marksmanship skills are an essential building block for all else. Remember that saying that slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. You can miss as fast as you can pull the trigger. There are very few gifted people that can shoot just about anything put in their hands. Most people require practice! My suggestion is to take a hands on class where range practices allow drawing and firing. I think DonL offers such a class, and there are other vendors that offer classes locally.

Practicing poor habits just makes it harder to learn the right way. And, point shooting is for arms length encounters only. The sights are there for a reason!
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