Kahr Magazine Problems

[Tin Can Sailor]

Has anyone else experienced something like this? I have a Kahr P40, at the range this week I put 50 rounds of S&B through it. In that time the polymer (plastic) follower on one mag was destroyed and damaged on two others. I also had 6 or 7 failures to feed both from slide lock and during a full firing cycle. Needless to say, I won't be carrying that one anymore until this gets resolved. The more I shoot anything else, the more I like my 1911. I guess my BUG will be a snubby for awhile. Any insight would be appreciated.

[onebohemian]

What do you mean by "destroyed?" What happened to the followers? Was it just casings grooving into the follower as they loaded into the chamber or something else? Was the rim on the casings unusually sharp or did you notice any other oddities about the ammo? Have you shot with those mags before and not had any problems?

[cobb]

The second most carry gun I have is a Kahr PM9. Also use it in classes that require a transition from primary to backup gun and I have had zero problems. Also have a P9 that is a class gun that students shoot and has been used at several other activities such as the NRA Women on Target, again zero mag problems. There has been several brands of 9mm ammunition run through these, including S&B.

Need a better description on destroyed, pictures are good.

[diskdoctr]

You can't carry a firearm you can't trust and it sounds like you can't trust this one. I have a PM9 that has an issue with the first round out of the mag not fully coming into battery when the slide is "slingshotted". If you drop the slide with the slide release (from a locked open position), that is not an issue. Since I drop a round into the chamber and then insert a full mag for carry, I don't worry about this. I would call Kahr and see about getting this sent in for repair. They are pretty good as long as you are the original owner.

[Tin Can Sailor]

I wish I could post pictures, unfortunately I am a technological dinosaur when it comes to computers. I can barely type. The followers have a metal tab set into the left side as viewed when inserting the magazine into the magwell. I think this engages the mag catch. On the "destroyed" follower there are sharp impact marks immediately behind the insert, the insert is missing and a .25" high x.125" wide section of the leading edge is broken off. The cartridge ramp itself is shows no unusual wear so I don't think it is ammo related. The other two followers show similar damage behind the insert but no cracking so far. Two of the three are fairly new and have only had less than 50 rounds through them.
As to the failure to go into battery, it happened in several circumstances; from slingshot, from slide release lever and from trigger press on a chambered round. All I can think is it may be related to the mag problem. Just looking for a root cause. (We Quality Control people do that )Thanks for the replies.

[MarineAir/old 0311]

Hey Tin Can Sailor,
Ironic that I was surfing the web looking for other people with similar problems.
Let me offer my two cents on what I've found from spending some time thinking over the issues with my PM40.
1. Kahr's premise that you should drop the slide stop to chamber rounds is flawed as any engineer will tell you. Slingshot (taught by the Marines for a reason) gives the most energy to the slide to strip the round from the magazine. Dropping the slide stop reduces the spring travel and thus the slide velocity as it travels fwd.
2. I own upwards of 10 handguns from 8 manufacturers. The Kahr is the only one that has a multi-angled (in the middle of the case of the round) body. As Kahr says in the FAQs: "If you would prefer not to carry a round in the chamber, you may remove a round from the magazine. This alters the angle of the bullet and will allow it to chamber even if you ride the slide." This means they have designed in a way for the angle of the rounds to change inside the magazine body. This is bad... I am finding that whenever I load more than 3 rounds into my mags the top round tilts up in relation to the rounds below it. This causes the extraction lip of the top round to catch on the round below it as the slide travels fwd. This is creating a friction point that slows the slide down considerably until the round snaps back into alignment and once at the lower angle it runs directly into the very steep feed ramp on the barrel. This is going to create feeding problems and possible bullet setback into the brass (another bad thing but a different subject for another day) The snapping of the round into alignment is aggravated under the high spring pressure of Kahr's magazines. The more rounds in the mag, the more friction on the extractor lip of the brass.
3. The magazines have a metal lip that you talked about in your post. I looked into the mag bodies of all three of my magazines and obvious metal on metal wear has been occurring due to that lip rubbing as it travels up and down. This is another point of friction (bad). The reason listed in para. 2 will cause an accelerated wear due to the violent jump up the mag body if the metal lip is not adequately supported by the rest of the follower body. Apparently it is not supported well enough.

Here's my plan that I myself am going to do:
1. Use a dremel tool to change the angle of one of my followers to match the feed lips of the magazine (same as my other 9 pistols. This should remove the tilt problem and its induced friction. If it works, I'll do the same with the others.
2. I am going to use the dremel tool to reduce and round off the edges of the metal extension on the follower. I want the polymer to be riding against the metal to reduce the friction but still want the metal to contact the slide stop for reliability. This should reduce the friction in multiple locations without costing a lot of money. If this works I’ll be happy with myself but still unforgiving of Kahr. They market their product to police as backup guns and to the average citizen as a reliable gun. I’ve been in combat on five different deployments in recent years and have been doing this for 17. I know what poor quality design and quality control can cost: -peoples’ lives. I don’t have much patience for this type of thing.
-- The handgun that lives by my side at night is an H&K. It has never hiccupped; not once in thousands and thousands of rounds over many years. The feeding of a round is so smooth you can’t even feel when the round actually slips off the magazine into the barrel when the slide is slowly ridden forward. I’ll be going back to my other H&K for carry and probably won’t play Kahr’s games.
Rest assured, it’ll run perfectly before I traipse off to the local store to sell it. I can’t live with the idea that a faulty gun might get trusted by someone that doesn’t know better.
Remember:--- your mind is the most powerful weapon you can wield and the bad guy isn’t packing the same kind of G2 you are!!! I pray you are never in the situation to find out.
Semper Fi.

[Tin Can Sailor]

Hey Tin Can Sailor,
Ironic that I was surfing the web looking for other people with similar problems.
Let me offer my two cents on what I've found from spending some time thinking over the issues with my PM40.
1. Kahr's premise that you should drop the slide stop to chamber rounds is flawed as any engineer will tell you. Slingshot (taught by the Marines for a reason) gives the most energy to the slide to strip the round from the magazine. Dropping the slide stop reduces the spring travel and thus the slide velocity as it travels fwd.
2. I own upwards of 10 handguns from 8 manufacturers. The Kahr is the only one that has a multi-angled (in the middle of the case of the round) body. As Kahr says in the FAQs: "If you would prefer not to carry a round in the chamber, you may remove a round from the magazine. This alters the angle of the bullet and will allow it to chamber even if you ride the slide." This means they have designed in a way for the angle of the rounds to change inside the magazine body. This is bad... I am finding that whenever I load more than 3 rounds into my mags the top round tilts up in relation to the rounds below it. This causes the extraction lip of the top round to catch on the round below it as the slide travels fwd. This is creating a friction point that slows the slide down considerably until the round snaps back into alignment and once at the lower angle it runs directly into the very steep feed ramp on the barrel. This is going to create feeding problems and possible bullet setback into the brass (another bad thing but a different subject for another day) The snapping of the round into alignment is aggravated under the high spring pressure of Kahr's magazines. The more rounds in the mag, the more friction on the extractor lip of the brass.
3. The magazines have a metal lip that you talked about in your post. I looked into the mag bodies of all three of my magazines and obvious metal on metal wear has been occurring due to that lip rubbing as it travels up and down. This is another point of friction (bad). The reason listed in para. 2 will cause an accelerated wear due to the violent jump up the mag body if the metal lip is not adequately supported by the rest of the follower body. Apparently it is not supported well enough.

Here's my plan that I myself am going to do:
1. Use a dremel tool to change the angle of one of my followers to match the feed lips of the magazine (same as my other 9 pistols. This should remove the tilt problem and its induced friction. If it works, I'll do the same with the others.
2. I am going to use the dremel tool to reduce and round off the edges of the metal extension on the follower. I want the polymer to be riding against the metal to reduce the friction but still want the metal to contact the slide stop for reliability. This should reduce the friction in multiple locations without costing a lot of money. If this works I’ll be happy with myself but still unforgiving of Kahr. They market their product to police as backup guns and to the average citizen as a reliable gun. I’ve been in combat on five different deployments in recent years and have been doing this for 17. I know what poor quality design and quality control can cost: -peoples’ lives. I don’t have much patience for this type of thing.
-- The handgun that lives by my side at night is an H&K. It has never hiccupped; not once in thousands and thousands of rounds over many years. The feeding of a round is so smooth you can’t even feel when the round actually slips off the magazine into the barrel when the slide is slowly ridden forward. I’ll be going back to my other H&K for carry and probably won’t play Kahr’s games.
Rest assured, it’ll run perfectly before I traipse off to the local store to sell it. I can’t live with the idea that a faulty gun might get trusted by someone that doesn’t know better.
Remember:--- your mind is the most powerful weapon you can wield and the bad guy isn’t packing the same kind of G2 you are!!! I pray you are never in the situation to find out.
Semper Fi.

Thanks for the reply.
I don't know what I'm going to do yet. For now I'm going to set it aside. Maybe when I win the lottery I'll send it off to Cylinder & Slide I know they do work on Kahrs. I too won't let it go to an unsuspecting person. I wouldn't want innocent blood on my hands.

As an old Squid to a Jarhead, thanks for your service Marine. Most people don't know the sacrifices of the few that allow them to sleep in safety each night and speak thier mind each day. Some of us do... Semper Fi.

Sheepdogs keep the wolves at bay.

[tweener]

If i paid as much as they want for a Kahr........I would expect it to function flawlessly or be taken care of by Kahr....

I was looking into several pistols for CC and I was very interested in the Kahr line, but when I did my research, I found many people VERY VERY dissapointed in their customer service, and many pistols with severe problems after only a year or so of use, and Kahr would not fix....

I walked away...

shame, it is a pretty gun.

[phap8]

i have a kahr cw40 and the magazine follower broke after 200 rounds. I just ordered a magazine follower from kahr over two weeks ago and still did not hear from them yet. I've tried getting someone on the phone with no success and left them with a message to call me back. I've tried sending them emails and still did not get any replies back. They are either short handed or just plain bad customer service. I surely will not purchase another kahr. For the price, i rather get something more reliable and a pistol where I can find parts at local shops.

[Seismic Sam]

Is there some difference between the Kahr P9 magazine that has never failed and the described multiple failures of P40's?? Not familiar with the gun, but the stories I'm hearing would scare me off for good if I were ever interested in looking into this brand. Add to that sucky customer service, and you have a real mess on your hands. In addition, having the top round of a 40 go slamming into the feed ramp low is scary as well, as 40 S&W kabooms are caused in some cases by bullet setback.

[UnaStamus]

I sold my PM9 recently because of terrible customer service by Kahr. Their quality control and customer service should be much better for what they charge for their pistols. I also decided that I no longer believe in owning a handgun that only has a 5yr limited warranty.

[moby clarke]

I have an MK9 and have had no problems with it. Additionally, the followers on my mags are metal. Good luck, I do hope you get the problem fixed. I love my MK9.

[Seismic Sam]

So, are metal Kahr followers available as an after market item?? Sounds like that dip**** double angle follower may be the problem...

[Rodentman]

I bought a PM40 in 2004 and have had no issues with it. Not fired thousands of rounds, but a few hundred for sure. I see what you mean about the position of the rounds, however, in the mag.

Photo of mag:



Two rounds loaded:



Four rounds loaded:

[Seismic Sam]

That is one seriously hosed up design!! I suspect what they were trying to do was stay cheap and go with minimal metal finishing on the insides of the mag bodies, and to counteract the friction from a full mag they had to jury rig the follower to keep the nose up with a full mag. Had that problem with my original EAA 10mm Witness, and after polishing the snot out of the inside of the mag body and then waxing it with Blue Armadillo wax and moly coating the mag spring, the problem went away and never came back. But that was a 14 round double stack mag, and there was a hell of a lot more friction with those longer 10mm cases.

Apparently Kahr's engineering and design is as sh***y as their customer service.