Rifle primers in .44 mag?

[Norsesmithy]

What Sam is saying is that an out of battery fire in a low pressure cartridge like .45 is bad, and an out of battery fire in a higher pressure cartridge (caused by a protruding primer) would be worse.

How that applies to a revolver where what would happen wouldn't be an OOB firing, but a sympathetic detonation I don't know.

[farmerj]

and what others are saying is there are times and places that rifle primers in cases do get used with no issues. He got called on it and he knew better.

[Seismic Sam]

Definitely a NO-NO!! I have no idea why you would want or need to use large rifle primers in a 44 mag, and there are some potentially serious problems, although they are minimized somewhat by shooting the ammo in a revolver rather than an autoloader. (And there are Desert Eagles in 44 mag....)

To begin with you don't need to do this. Case in point, 1911fan's 44 mag ammo for his Ruger Super Blackhawk (HOT!!! HOT!!! HOT!!!) and the low serial number Smith 29 he USED to have that he loaded at a lower level. 1911fan's son went out one day with the Model 29, and took the Ruger Super Blackhawk loads by mistake, and the Model 29 came home in pieces (literally!! ) So you don't need rifle primers to load 44 magnum loads that will blow up a Smith 29....

For 44 mag, this is totally not necessary and nobody does it. so I suspect the guy you ran into was one of "THOSE" people that took some stupid pills before he boldy went where no idiot had gone before.

I'd be wary of taking advice from buffoonish, self-proclaimed "experts" who claim never to have come across brass-colored primers in nearly 40 years, and who don't know that the .454 Casull cartridge utilizes a rifle primer.

Here, have some of your stupid pills back.

A: Mea culpa on the brass colored primers, but I settled on CCI primers nearly 40 years ago, and have never had a problem, so I stuck with that brand. Do you actually KNOW for a fact that Winchester even sold primers back then? I don't recall having that buying choice when I got into reloading. Sue me for never indiscriminately mixing components.

B: I'm not the only person on this forum who thought 454 Casull brass ran on large pistol or rifle primers. Reference the post immediately previous to mine. For a case that size, the use of a small rifle primer is totally unique, and inexplicable. Oh, would you care to explain WHY the 454 Casull uses small rifle priners instead of large ones??

C: The initial report we had of this was from Rodentman, who saw an unknown person shooting a 44 Mag with large rifle primers. Okay, based on all the noobs and idjits we have had through here, including the one who loaded up a HOT Ruger #1 45-70 load in his break-open action after shooting 1873 ammo, and the one who said you could use 40 S&W brass in a 10mm with 10mm POWER loads, and the one who said you could use 40 S&W brass to make 357 Sig brass, and the snotty elitist that was shooting 243 ammo in a 30-06 rifle and snarled at anybody trying to help him out, and the complete dolt who was shooting 308 ammo in a 30-06, what are the chances that somebody you see at the range doing something not endorsed by a reloading manual HAS a chrono and has checked out his data by looking at the velocity Standard Deviation? You know damn well the chances are very near zero percent.

So, after a LOOONNNGG procession of dolts, idiots, and noobs who never had time to even buy a manual before starting to reload, much less reading anything but the loading data for that caliber, you expect from a second hand report of some custom loads you put up that have NO precedent in any reloading manual out there, that somebody, anybody should recognize that you have done your due diligence in working up this load? You know, about the only people that could come to that assumption would be somebody that voted for Obama Bin Lying...

You appear to be the double zero on the roulette wheel of reloaders, so sue me for staying with the black or red line.

[farmerj]

why the personal attack?

It would seem that this is not the first time that you got called on something, at which time you fly off the handle. It damages your credibility not mine.

Thank you sir, have a nice evening.

As to why the casull uses a small rifle primer, articles I have read on it state it is due to it being such a high pressure load and the small rifle pocket offers more strengh than small pistol.

Guess one would have to ask Dick Casull or Jack Fulmer for the real reason.

[Seismic Sam]

You are hoist on your own petard, sir, and are known for doing it repeatedly...

why the personal attack?

It would seem that this is not the first time that you got called on something, at which time you fly off the handle. It damages your credibility not mine.

Thank you sir, have a nice evening.

Re: Reloading 9mm Luger and a few questions
by Seismic Sam on Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:27 am

OH. One other question: Do you own a REAL realoading manual at least 2" thick, and have you read it cover-to-cover?? Getting data off the internet and starting loading without having CAREFULLY read the entire manual is THE best way to screw up big time. So, do you even own a real manual, and have you read it cover-to-cover??
Seismic Sam

talk about a bunch of internet ********.

you are going to tell us that information from the Hodgdon, alliant or other powder manufacturers website is hogwash and needs to be ignored?

The load data that is taken from the manufacturers websites means nothing to you? and the rest of us need to ignore it unless it's in a printed and bound book that YOU deem is superior?

farmerj

That's not what he's saying at all, but way to overreact as usual.

[dleong]

A: Mea culpa on the brass colored primers, but I settled on CCI primers nearly 40 years ago, and have never had a problem, so I stuck with that brand. Do you actually KNOW for a fact that Winchester even sold primers back then? I don't recall having that buying choice when I got into reloading. Sue me for never indiscriminately mixing components.

For reference, the relevant paragraph from your "Rookie Reloaders" thread:

While I will not say that it's completely impossible to find brass primers on the open market, I've never run across any in any gun store I've been in nearly 40 years, so in general if you find a case with a brass rather than silver colored primer it's a very good bet that what you have is once fired factory brass. [EXCEPTION!! If you're picking up shiny nickel plated cases, those generally have nickel plated primers to match, so with nickel plated brass you're less certain whether it's once fired or not. Same rule CAN apply to pricey personal defense brass.]

I commend you for taking the time to write up that (mostly informative) post for the benefit of handloading newbs. However, you explicitly targeted that post at neophytes coming into the handloading scene today and as such it should reflect the current primer situation, not what you remember it to be 40 years ago. Whether or not Winchester was producing brass primers 40 years back is irrelevant; the fact is, currently, a case with a brass-colored primer picked up off the range floor is just as likely (and I'd wager to say more so, given the current availability and popularity of Winchester primers amongst handloaders) to be reloaded as a case with a silver-colored primer.

B: I'm not the only person on this forum who thought 454 Casull brass ran on large pistol or rifle primers. Reference the post immediately previous to mine. For a case that size, the use of a small rifle primer is totally unique, and inexplicable. Oh, would you care to explain WHY the 454 Casull uses small rifle priners instead of large ones??

Reread my post. I was alluding to your not being cognizant of the type of primer (pistol vs. rilfe) used in a .454 Casull cartridge, not size (small vs. large). We already know that a rifle primer is specified because its thicker cup is needed to be able to withstand the higher pressures inherent in that cartridge. If you want to know why a small primer was specified, well, I don't have Mr. Casull's phone number handy for you.

(My gut feeling is that a small primer leaves more brass in the structure of the case to withstand that caliber's insane pressures.)

C: The initial report we had of this was from Rodentman, who saw an unknown person shooting a 44 Mag with large rifle primers. Okay, based on all the noobs and idjits we have had through here, including the one who loaded up a HOT Ruger #1 45-70 load in his break-open action after shooting 1873 ammo, and the one who said you could use 40 S&W brass in a 10mm with 10mm POWER loads, and the one who said you could use 40 S&W brass to make 357 Sig brass, and the snotty elitist that was shooting 243 ammo in a 30-06 rifle and snarled at anybody trying to help him out, and the complete dolt who was shooting 308 ammo in a 30-06, what are the chances that somebody you see at the range doing something not endorsed by a reloading manual HAS a chrono and has checked out his data by looking at the velocity Standard Deviation? You know damn well the chances are very near zero percent.

Thank you for lumping me with the rest of those people, even though I was not trying to shoot a cartridge with a case reformed from a different caliber, or shoot an incorrect caliber out of my firearm, or experiment with cartridges loaded beyond safe maximum specs. All you had was Rodentman telling you that he saw an individual safely shooting extremely accurate .44 Mag handloads with rifle primers, and you immediately label that individual a stupid pill-consuming idiot without knowing how that load was worked up.

So, SS, how much did you pay for your "Jump To Conclusions" mat?

So, after a LOOONNNGG procession of dolts, idiots, and noobs who never had time to even buy a manual before starting to reload, much less reading anything but the loading data for that caliber, you expect from a second hand report of some custom loads you put up that have NO precedent in any reloading manual out there, that somebody, anybody should recognize that you have done your due diligence in working up this load? You know, about the only people that could come to that assumption would be somebody that voted for Obama Bin Lying...

You appear to be the double zero on the roulette wheel of reloaders, so sue me for staying with the black or red line.

You wouldn't know if due diligence was exercised in the work-up of that load using the large rifle primer, because you automatically assumed none was used. And you know what they say when you ASSume things...

You're really getting your money's worth out of your "Jump To Conclusions" mat!

Beyond your jejune use of ad hominems, you have not shown how the use of a properly seated large rifle primer in a safely worked-up .44 Mag recipe is any more dangerous than using a regular magnum large pistol primer.

[Gecko, Extra Crispy]

Just scoop the case full of bullseye and put what ever primer fits in the primer hole without falling out. Compress it all with the heaviest bullet you can find in your caliber(or a similar caliber .357 is close to .355 right?) This is an impressive load in any caliber. You wont need any manual to figure that out!

[dleong]

Just scoop the case full of bullseye and put what ever primer fits in the primer hole without falling out. Compress it all with the heaviest bullet you can find in your caliber(or a similar caliber .357 is close to .355 right?) This is an impressive load in any caliber. You wont need any manual to figure that out!

No manual needed, but good health insurance coverage (and possibly a generous life insurance policy that pays death benefits) would certainly help.

[Seismic Sam]

Good post, dleong, and your points are all well taken, and thank you for your even tone and thoughtful criticism. (As opposed to some OTHER people, that I wasn't even talking to in my previous post, but chose to barge in and overrect as usual anyway... )

As far as point B is concerned, the 454 Casull and the 500 Smith have the same SAAMI pressure levels of 65,000 PSI, but the Smith 500 uses large rifle primers and the 454 uses small rifle primers, even though it's a relatively big case. As such, the arguement that the 454 needs a small rifle primer to keep the case strength up is questionable. In addition, I was into handloading when the 454 started to go public, and it used virgin 45LC brass (only thing that was available back then...) with large pistol primers and very spooky triplex powder loads, with (IIRC!!) 2 grains of Unique in the bottom of the case, followed by lots of 2400, and then 6 grains of Bullseye under the bullet to spank it out of the barrel with a final pressure spike. Obviously, the loads had to be compressed, or the powder would mix and you would be screwed. I had no interest in revolvers, (had a 44 Automag at the time anyway...), and that triplex loading stuff was not something I was willing to try. So between the start of the 454 Casull and now, they got their own brass made and somehow the spec got changed to a small rifle primer from large pistol for reasons that STILL aren't clear in light of the Smith 500, and I missed that part of the development of the cartridge.

Sorry about confusing you with the rookies, but on second hand information of some anonymous person doing this, the chances of that person being a careful handloader with a chrono and the knowledge to do the proper stat work AND also being a member of this forum were vanishingly small. (Not quite Powerball odds, but close...) I'm sure you can appreciate that, because I'm sure you've seen your own horror stories at the range. After all the years of seeing what I have seen, when you hear hoofbeats, you definitely think horses and not zebras. (Besides which, them stripey things would freeze to death here in Minnezotah!)

And BTW, what powder are you using in your 44 loads? H110/296 is the de facto standard, but Lil' Gun is pretty much the wave of the future for big case magnum handgun loads.

[old guy]

Just scoop the case full of bullseye and put what ever primer fits in the primer hole without falling out. Compress it all with the heaviest bullet you can find in your caliber(or a similar caliber .357 is close to .355 right?) This is an impressive load in any caliber. You wont need any manual to figure that out!

I met a guy once who told me he blew up his Super Blackhawk .44 mag. He had bought a lee loader the little $13.95 one and proceeded to load, he said their was much more recoil than the factory loads and one third shot the whole top of the gun went away. When I asked what powder 2400? unique? he said bullseye, I asked how much and he said he just scooped the case full I'm surprised it took three.

John

[Gecko, Extra Crispy]

Ya I'm not sure anyone should use my load data as I happen to be one of the crazy people who use small rifle primers in my 38 super loads for my open gun.

[farmerj]

I simply said 454 casull used a rifle primer too.


You got you panties in a bunch and went from there.

[Gecko, Extra Crispy]

I simply said 454 casull used a rifle primer too.


You got you panties in a bunch and went from there.

Maybe he should buy 3 books and read them cover to cover before posting online.

[westberg]

I think we all can learn from the fact that sometimes we don't know what we don't know.

[Gecko, Extra Crispy]

Aw you are ruining my fun