Vests?

[Pinnacle]

Yet again the point is missed. There are 2 kinds of plates. Stand alone and in conjunction with.

ICW plates are useless without the KM2 backing, repeat USELESS. if your plates are rated for 30-06 AP it is likely they are ICW and without the softpack, well useless.

XSAPI AND ESAPI are not suitable plates, XSAPI is not available for the commercial market at all, and regardless of how some mfg markets a plate ESAPI is not a good answer. You want a plate buy a standalone nij III poly plate. Light and cheap.

Guys this is what I do for a living, every day day in and day out. Just bid the ESAPI IDIQ and won the 30% share.

[Consummate]

Hopefully the plates you acquired are standalone rated...

They're rated for 30-06 AP, I'm not sure if they're with our without the kevlar backing, I'll have to check. Though I don't feel like I'm ever going to be in a holly-wood shootout anytime soon. Even if it did happen I doubt the bad dude is going to be running around with anything larger than a 30-06 taking quick, accurate shots.

Who's the manufacturer of the the plates, and what model?

You might be surprised what the bad guys are "running around with".

[SSGT LARSEN]

ok esapi plates arent classified they are a level 3 that work with titanium and steel the threat assessment for these plates taking hits is only a caliber 7.62 or .308 round commonly used the goverment doesnt spend extra on dishing out body armor you want better armor you buy it the cost of a vest per soldier is around 900 dollars so giving them something higher than level 3 is unethical delusions of super safety for soldiers is how the pussies staying out of the fight justify sending us to die so please dont try to tell us this esapi plates can be bought by anyone new and undamged because soldiers often purchase spares and the goverment doesnt get mad because resale makes them money

[elroy]

Thought I'd share my experience with vests "breaking down" or losing their stop-ability over time.

I took my first Second Chance vest bought new in 1978 out a few weeks ago and it stopped everything it was designed to: .357, 9mm, .45. .380. I didn't have a 12 gauge handy to try, but did try a .223. Predictably, it went through both panels (front and back) like a knife through warm butter. A full power S&W .500 magnum went through the first panel but was stopped by the second, but not before doing horrible damage to the stump the panels were leaning against.

[farmerj]

If you look just to the right of my shoulder, you can see the issued vest we shot that day.

It stopped everything except the .223. I would NOT however want to even think about what a 9mm carbine would do to that vest.

Based on that day and what we saw when we dug out the bullets, I'll go with the Golden Sabre 124Gr for my carry ammo. Second choice is the Speer Gold Dots.

[jshuberg]

This is pretty cool, multiple armor piercing rounds were stopped, and the plate was pretty much shredded before it started to fail:

[GunClasses.Net]

did try a .223. Predictably, it went through both panels (front and back) like a knife through warm butter. ...

Was it the green tipped .223 or just FMJ? If it was FMJ, I wonder then - what is the advantage of the M885 green tipped stuff?

Does armor used by our troops typically interdict small arms fire? Or does it do its job against shrapnel more often (roadside bombs)?

19...what? wow. That's old. Most PDs will decommission armor after a few years, I think? How was this old armor stored? I heard humidity / sweat will start to break it down.

What length of barrel shot the .223 rounds? I've read that our guys in Iraq had some problems penetrating Iraqi body armor because short barrels didn't get the velocities needed to compromise the armor it hit.

Sent from my Tardis using Tapatalk HD

[Pinnacle]

ok esapi plates arent classified they are a level 3 that work with titanium and steel the threat assessment for these plates taking hits is only a caliber 7.62 or .308 round commonly used the goverment doesnt spend extra on dishing out body armor you want better armor you buy it the cost of a vest per soldier is around 900 dollars so giving them something higher than level 3 is unethical delusions of super safety for soldiers is how the pussies staying out of the fight justify sending us to die so please dont try to tell us this esapi plates can be bought by anyone new and undamged because soldiers often purchase spares and the goverment doesnt get mad because resale makes them money

Not correct. The threat for ESAPI is unpublished due to its sensitivity.

What can be said is they are not a good answer for typical needs but they are a good solid answer for the battlefield threat matrix.

[ktech]

I think some folks are missing important points.

First, Jake: if the plates you have aren't standalone rated, they won't stop anything worth crap - I don't think you're following what Pinnacle is saying.
Plates that aren't standalone do not work without soft armor under them.

Furthermore, plates and soft armor are two different things, and there are two (major) types of plates - ceramic and steel. Ceramic plates can be compromised by fractures invisible to the naked eye if they have, at any point, been dropped or struck on the edge in some way. That's the military standard plate, and is one of many reasons it's not recommended to buy mil-surp plates (aside from the fact that they've been stolen or "lost").

Most of the tests involving old body armor still working are inapplicable to this discussion for a couple reasons.
First: stopping the projectile does not guarantee survival. There's still lots of energy there that has to be transferred somewhere, and if the armor weave has degraded, it'll get transferred to you.
Second: all of the "old body armor" tests I'm aware of involve soft armor, which is arguably less susceptible to full failure along the lines of ceramic hard plates, but is prey to a slower more gradual failure of the armor weave.

tl;dr

Buy new armor from a reputable dealer who knows what they're selling you if your life depends on it, because you don't know as much as you think you do about body armor.

[20mm]

Not correct. The threat for ESAPI is unpublished due to its sensitivity.
What can be said is they are not a good answer for typical needs but they are a good solid answer for the battlefield threat matrix.

The exact testing methods are only sensitive to politicians and government officials looking for kickbacks. God forbid anyone could independently test and verify standards the DoD had set.

Overall ESAPI is not that great, and the threats easy to guess: http://depositfiles.com/files/77jes8qah

[sgruenhagen44]

I just can't think of any profession other than being a LEO where I would feel the need to wear one on a daily basis. This is going on to the OP. Does your buddy carry on the job? If it came down to it I would rather carry if I had to pick one or the other. Even then I would spend that vest money on BUG.

[20mm]

I just can't think of any profession other than being a LEO where I would feel the need to wear one on a daily basis.

If I were you, I'd just stop thinking. Perhaps you work in a jewelry store, or as a courier for money/valuables, an armored truck driver, a bouncer, or private security guard. Also don't forget about all the folks who might be dealing with stalkers or personal threats to their lives.

[sgruenhagen44]

I just can't think of any profession other than being a LEO where I would feel the need to wear one on a daily basis.

If I were you, I'd just stop thinking. Perhaps you work in a jewelry store, or as a courier for money/valuables, an armored truck driver, a bouncer, or private security guard. Also don't forget about all the folks who might be dealing with stalkers or personal threats to their lives.

If i worked in a Jewelry store it had better be a pretty comfortable totally inconspicuous vest. I wouldn't want to scare the **** out of my customers. Armored truck driver yes I can see that. But even as a bouncer I don't think I would... I would be more worried about being stabbed. Either way its just my opinion. I'm going to lump the guys who where vests in with the guys who carry two guns and six extra mags for daily carry. If I was some high end private security guard I would have my employer buy it. I don't know man. Carrying a gun is one thing... it's small light and ya just hook it on your belt. Not so much with a vest. And where do you draw the line? Flak jacket? Helmet? Riot gear? Ya can't plan for everything. Plus more of what I was getting at was how practical is it? I'm sure 99.9% of guys on this forum do not where vests. I'm not sayin they don't work... but after reading these last few pages I think I would spend some good dough on a vest if I were to buy one. Otherwise you spent $200 on a very uncomfortable garment.

[Pinnacle]

Not correct. The threat for ESAPI is unpublished due to its sensitivity.
What can be said is they are not a good answer for typical needs but they are a good solid answer for the battlefield threat matrix.

The exact testing methods are only sensitive to politicians and government officials looking for kickbacks. God forbid anyone could independently test and verify standards the DoD had set.

Overall ESAPI is not that great, and the threats easy to guess: http://depositfiles.com/files/77jes8qah

I don't understand where you are coming from, or what your point is exactly. Government Officials looking for kickbacks? How do you think that happens exactly - just asking...

As for the DoD Standards, they are Classified and that's all that anyone needs to know.

[Pinnacle]

I think some folks are missing important points.

First, Jake: if the plates you have aren't standalone rated, they won't stop anything worth crap - I don't think you're following what Pinnacle is saying.
Plates that aren't standalone do not work without soft armor under them.

Furthermore, plates and soft armor are two different things, and there are two (major) types of plates - ceramic and steel. Ceramic plates can be compromised by fractures invisible to the naked eye if they have, at any point, been dropped or struck on the edge in some way. That's the military standard plate, and is one of many reasons it's not recommended to buy mil-surp plates (aside from the fact that they've been stolen or "lost").

Most of the tests involving old body armor still working are inapplicable to this discussion for a couple reasons.
First: stopping the projectile does not guarantee survival. There's still lots of energy there that has to be transferred somewhere, and if the armor weave has degraded, it'll get transferred to you.
Second: all of the "old body armor" tests I'm aware of involve soft armor, which is arguably less susceptible to full failure along the lines of ceramic hard plates, but is prey to a slower more gradual failure of the armor weave.

tl;dr

Buy new armor from a reputable dealer who knows what they're selling you if your life depends on it, because you don't know as much as you think you do about body armor.

Not at all bad:

A Couple of points -
1. ALL Personal armor - plates or soft armor is prone to degradation over time die to environmental factors and just age.
2. Plates and Soft Armor are tested substantially differently
3. Military I, E and X-SAPI threats are NOT Published - they are CLASSIFIED - anything you read on the internet is questionable at best.
4. Buy New Armor (a point made above) if you are going to be a cheapass, you are going to get armor that may not work all that well.
5. If you feel the need to wear rifle plates for whatever reason, you are in the wrong business or neighborhood.
6. ICW plates DO NOT work without the REQUIRED level of Soft Armor behind it - period
7. Most Ceramic plates might not hold rounds within the first 1.5" of the edge of the plate - full circumference.
8. If someone offers to sell you E-SAPI US DOD issue plates - they are STOLEN - the Government does not surplus this armor doe to the sensitive nature of the threat specifications.