valleyfair situation / good or bad shoot

[ttousi]

yup........ warning shots............not one but 2...........COM

[Victoria]

I have seen two things split a crowd quick. A gun and a dog. If you start putting holes into people the mob will not be running at you they will be going away. Guns shots will scatter them like cockroaches when you turn on the lights

My personal experience with this kind of particular crowd/situation (granted, not in Minnesota) is that innocent bystanders would scatter like cockroaches when the light comes on, but the gang-type people only scatter so far before either shooting back or regrouping and following you to attack later. Personally, I don't like those odds in that situation.

This is Valley Fair not Mogadishu. The cops are on the way and we are not talking about a riot. Vermin are not used to armed resistance and dont have rally points and contact drills and they value their life. I would not simply call the cops and walk to my car and go home while a 12 girl watches here dad die. The reason they fuc ked with other people is because no one did anything but call the cops. Shooting may not be the answer but just calling and watching as a kid looses her father is just as stupid as these guys beating him.

I didn't grow up in Mogadishu but I did grow up in a very gang-infested urban area (much bigger than the Twin Cities). My personal real-life experiences there were that people who got involved in anything gang-related there ended up with retribution. Maybe not on the spot or on the way out to your car later on, but after news reports with your name and picture and possibly address as the person involved in an incident like this, you could look forward to a drive-by or someone recognizing you filling up at the gas station a week later. I don't know if the youths here are like the ones where I grew up, but the original question was "would you shoot?" and my personal experiences are what go into my decisions. Unless they were kicking the crap out of my husband or an immediate family member, I would stay the hell out of a situation like this.

[justaguy]

Fair enough.

I like to think I wouldn’t let 8 people beat a guy down while his 12yr. daughter watches. After they beat the old man what stops them from further violating the 12yr. old. At some point we as a society have to stand up. Just saying.

[nyffman]

I'm leaning in the direction of justaguy's response. In view of this self centered violent subculture visiting random violence upon anyone they care to, is it time to rethink the role of police vs the role of everyone? If I understand things correctly, our system of law enforcement is built on the idea that most people are law abiding and peaceful. In that scenario, a cop on every corner isn't necessary. How much more of an increase in this has to happen before one of two things changes? Either we go the route of cop on every corner, or the average person changes his/her position on dealing with these thugs. Or, I guess there is a third option. Everyone could just stay home, live in fear and hope they aren't attracted to your house. However, I don't think "hope" is a real good strategy.

[nyffman]

I just came across this one. Possibly sheds some light.

[Victoria]

Fair enough.

I like to think I wouldn’t let 8 people beat a guy down while his 12yr. daughter watches. After they beat the old man what stops them from further violating the 12yr. old. At some point we as a society have to stand up. Just saying.

Absolutely agree. We could start, at the bare minimum, by charging these gems with some sort of real crime. Sexual assault of a minor would be great, and say attempted murder? What's this "assault" crap? And don't get me started on appropriate punishments.

You hit the nail on the head imho, it's a societal problem. We need bigger solutions than hoping a bystander was carrying and could stop this one incident. Sure, each one of us willing to take a stand is a small step forward, but until we can fix some bigger issues, I don't forsee this kind of unpleasantness stopping. It'll only get worse.

[Tutmos]

I just came across this one. Possibly sheds some light.

Just like a farm animal. Might I also add that if I hear "know whut I'm say'un?" once more today I may have to kill myself.

[Tutmos]

Fair enough.

I like to think I wouldn’t let 8 people beat a guy down while his 12yr. daughter watches. After they beat the old man what stops them from further violating the 12yr. old. At some point we as a society have to stand up. Just saying.

You hit the nail on the head imho, it's a societal problem. We need bigger solutions than hoping a bystander was carrying and could stop this one incident. Sure, each one of us willing to take a stand is a small step forward, but until we can fix some bigger issues, I don't forsee this kind of unpleasantness stopping. It'll only get worse.

You mean like 20 people carrying and pulling guns out at the same time to stop it?

[justaguy]

Fair enough.

I like to think I wouldn’t let 8 people beat a guy down while his 12yr. daughter watches. After they beat the old man what stops them from further violating the 12yr. old. At some point we as a society have to stand up. Just saying.

You hit the nail on the head imho, it's a societal problem. We need bigger solutions than hoping a bystander was carrying and could stop this one incident. Sure, each one of us willing to take a stand is a small step forward, but until we can fix some bigger issues, I don't forsee this kind of unpleasantness stopping. It'll only get worse.

You mean like 20 people carrying and pulling guns out at the same time to stop it?

This is all going deeper than I want to go. But I believe in better laws and harsher sentences and being tough on crime and all that.

I’m talking more about the here and now. If someone is beating the **** out of someone those laws and things don’t matter you have to deal with the guy beating the **** out of someone right in front of you. Laws don’t stop that, “I” do (or anyone willing to use force). That can be argued, but not by me.

If 20 people need to pull guns than that is what is needed. Maybe telling someone to knock it off, grab them, push them, pull them, punch them in the mouth, a kick in the ass whatever is needed. A mob can also be a good thing. Obviously there are issues with 20 people pulling guns but realistically you have to factor in pulling a gun if that is what is needed. I’m assuming (I could be wrong) your being the devils advocate and trying to throw in the how do you tell the good from the bad.

[Wadero]

Maybe we should look at this as a golden rule situation.... If I was laying on the ground and 8 vermin were kicking me in the fricking head, I would really appreciate it if one of the people who were willing to step in were around.

Just as the animals that roam the street have herd mentality, so does the onlooking crowd. Very few people will make any sort of reaction until someone else does. The story of the woman that was raped in front of the apartment building, no one called the cops because they all thought someone else would. How about the recent video of the guy that got crushed by the car in the street. No one stepped up to help him. The cop in Boston that was fighting with a thug for several minutes and the lady taking the video didn't even call 911 to help him. Finally someone with enough decency to help out his fellow man stepped up and about three more people help after that and finally the lady called 911 to get the guy backup.


Those of you who would be willing to stroll by and think, "well better him than me" should sit down every **** morning and thank god that there are police officers and fire fighters and Marines and Soldiers and Sailors that are willing to give up **** everything to help your stupid ass out when you need it.

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

[nyffman]

You hit the nail on the head imho, it's a societal problem. We need bigger solutions than hoping a bystander was carrying and could stop this one incident. Sure, each one of us willing to take a stand is a small step forward, but until we can fix some bigger issues, I don't forsee this kind of unpleasantness stopping. It'll only get worse.

Considering that there have been bad people doing bad things as long as there have been people, what should be done? And I'm not being snarky. Just wondering what you see as a starting point. I mean, looking at even more recent history, LBJ started the war on poverty in 64. Many Democrats are so quick to denounce other wars, yet they keep supporting and funding this war. Maybe it's time to declare victory and pull our troops($$$$$$) out of this one so they can be redeployed in a more effective way. Sorry about the rant, I sidetracked myself. But where do you start fixing something like this that has been ingrained in the society for so long and hasn't been properly dealt with from any side of the problem.

[Victoria]

You hit the nail on the head imho, it's a societal problem. We need bigger solutions than hoping a bystander was carrying and could stop this one incident. Sure, each one of us willing to take a stand is a small step forward, but until we can fix some bigger issues, I don't forsee this kind of unpleasantness stopping. It'll only get worse.

Considering that there have been bad people doing bad things as long as there have been people, what should be done? And I'm not being snarky. Just wondering what you see as a starting point. I mean, looking at even more recent history, LBJ started the war on poverty in 64. Many Democrats are so quick to denounce other wars, yet they keep supporting and funding this war. Maybe it's time to declare victory and pull our troops($$$$$$) out of this one so they can be redeployed in a more effective way. Sorry about the rant, I sidetracked myself. But where do you start fixing something like this that has been ingrained in the society for so long and hasn't been properly dealt with from any side of the problem.

I don't have all the answers, I'm not terribly smart about these types of things, and a lot of my opinions would probably spin this thread out of control. In regard to this specific issue, the mentality of certain groups of young people, I don't think it's been as bad as it is for very long. It really seems to have exploded over the last 15-20 years in my personal experience. I think part of it can be attributed to the ideals in certain parts of our culture, other parts of it can be attributed to lenient punishments (again I think assault for this case is completely ridiculous), overcrowding in prisons, welfare, politics, and so on. I don't know if it is a cultural shift we will be able to make in this country, especially since more and more people want the government to be our nanny and want to give those poor misguided youths another chance.

I am definitely not a stand-by-and-do-nothing person. I've called 911 and/or intervened in assaults before. I just would not like my odds in this particular situation, especially as a female, and I'm generally not a timid girl, or even particularly polite much of the time.

[nyffman]

I'm thinking, somewhere in here is the fact that there is a disparity in income. The "have nots" find it easier to rationalise why they have not and blame someone else. From there, it's a short trip to just taking from the "haves" and all the associated anger. Not excusing, in any way, what is happening. I think that somewhere near the root of this is how the children are brought up. I'll use myself as an example. I don't consider myself to be the shining example of success in America. Pretty much everyone in my family has been or is involved in professional careers. Two dentist, a phD pharmacist, attorne, electrical engineer and a CPA. Due to attitudes and choices I made, none of those are me. I accept that fact and the loss of income and prestige that goes along with it. I do, however have one advantage over thugs like this. I learned personal responsibility from my parents. I accept the fact that actions and choices have consequences. I also accept the fact that someone else having something that I don't does not mean that I can just take it from them. Sure they were failed by their parent(s). The dilema for us is how are we going to deal with this situation?

[BRIT_in_the_weeds]

As for good samaritans, two words......bbbbbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaa............. bbbbbbbbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Golden Rule # 4 ALWAYS KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHATS BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Late night,.......... dark,............ and in a crowd.................WTF are you people thinking ......drawing down on a scumbag Use the cell phone for a call to 911, not a youtube video

[Wadero]

And the cops will arrive in just enough time to get a statement of which way the vermin went and to mop up the blood.


I am just saying that if my skull is getting crushed, I hope someone will be able to give me a hand.