The First Rule of Gun Safety

[brad3579]

The "as-if" part comes into play because we always check condition every single time we handle a firearm, especially those who carry. Even though we absolutely know beyond a doubt that the firearm in question is loaded/unloaded, we look anyway. Therefore, since we have literally just opened the action and verified the fact that the firearm we're handling is indeed unloaded, we still handle it as if it were loaded.

That is what I tell everyone and do it myself. It does not matter if they see someone check the condition, when handed to them they should do the same. I have had people give me a look sometimes when checking right after they did but that is the only safe way in mind. Have also watched people in shops not look for themselves and proceed to point them around.

Funny, I was just reading a chapter in Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" last night and he was talking about treating guns as loaded. His solution, keep all his guns loaded at all times. He said when someone came over to see his guns, he hands it to the person telling them the gun is loaded. People were much more careful, didn't needlessly snap the cylinder in and out, or dry fire guns he didn't want dry fired. Probably not the best idea, but it worked for him. For me, I can be completely confident that the chamber is empty (i just checked it), but I still handle it as if the hammer was back on a loaded chamber - that works for me, even though I know in the back of my head its empty.

Not too crazy about handing someone a loaded gun in the house, sounds like an accident waiting to happen. (I hope he was just telling people they were loaded but were not.)

[mmhoium]

See, that was my entire point to my friend about the "as is" statement. As you wrote "even though I know in the back of my head its empty". If one says "all guns are loaded." that is a statement with finality and no doubt; whereas if "treat all guns as if they are loaded" is said or thought, then that can lead to that doubt or thoughts that "even though I know in the back of my head its empty". Again, that was the entire point to my friend. We eventually agreed to disagree.

Inserting the "as if" statement allows someone to do things like dry fire practice. If you operate under the premise that all guns "are loaded", in your head, dry fire is not safe, no matter what - its finite, remember? We have to have two sets of reality. We all know that dry fire practice is safe and important and thats when we bring in the "treat it as if" statement because we have taken the necessary precautions like removing all ammunition from the room and having no distractions.

Oh, and I'm sure Elmer Keith did keep all his guns loaded...altho he has been one to stretch the truth

[JohnGageMN]

I had a conversation with a good friend of mine tonight and to cut to the chase and point of this post about that conversation, he mentioned that one of his relatives told my friend's daughter to "treat all guns as if they were loaded." Now my friend's relative (who has extensive military experience and knows quite a bit about guns) gave some other good and very sound advice, but I explained to my friend that If you state to "treat all guns as if they were loaded", the "as if" part of that opens up doubt; meaning the gun isn't loaded, but treat it as if it is.

I disagree with this "as if" statement his relative made.

What I explained to him is that what I say is "treat all guns as loaded. Period." Unless I have personally taken a gun apart, it's loaded. There is a certainty in my statement of "treat all guns as loaded. Period." and that certainty and statement is not there when "as if" is used such as in "treat all guns as if they were loaded".I think that "as is" really changes the statement and opens up for doubt, uncertainty, and to presume the gun is unloaded, but to treat it as loaded; and to me, that's a very dangerous mindset to be in when handling any firearm.

Regarding the other rules of basic gun safety, we don't say "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy with a loaded gun"; no, we don't say that. The rule is "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy." Period. There is a finality in that. It's a statement of fact. There is no doubt in your mind. No "as is" to open that up.

My friend pointed out that in both statements (mine) "treat all guns as loaded" and his "treat all guns as if they were loaded", the doubt is only being created in my mind, and that in both cases, you're treating the firearm with respect to having a loaded chamber; but I see a difference between the two statements and that "as if" largely changes the meaning of that statement as well as opens up for a dangerous, doubtful mindset when handling firearms.

What do you say and think?

Discuss.

You are crossing your own argument by saying that "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy" is a fact.

"Treat every gun as if it is loaded" is a more factual statement than "treat every gun as loaded", because every gun is not, in fact, loaded.

Honestly, you're parsing words of no meaningful difference. It's a choice of style and grammar, and I don't see how the additional words of the rule as it is most commonly written would put doubt in anyone's mind. It is still a statement of an absolute, that you ALWAYS treat guns in a particular manner. Personally I think it drives the point home better because if nothing else it emphasizes the idea that it does not matter one iota if the gun is unloaded, you still treat it the same way.

I think what's most important is the positive I take away from your initial story that a relative is taking the time to teach basic firearms safety to a kid.

[XDM45]

I had a conversation with a good friend of mine tonight and to cut to the chase and point of this post about that conversation, he mentioned that one of his relatives told my friend's daughter to "treat all guns as if they were loaded." Now my friend's relative (who has extensive military experience and knows quite a bit about guns) gave some other good and very sound advice, but I explained to my friend that If you state to "treat all guns as if they were loaded", the "as if" part of that opens up doubt; meaning the gun isn't loaded, but treat it as if it is.

I disagree with this "as if" statement his relative made.

What I explained to him is that what I say is "treat all guns as loaded. Period." Unless I have personally taken a gun apart, it's loaded. There is a certainty in my statement of "treat all guns as loaded. Period." and that certainty and statement is not there when "as if" is used such as in "treat all guns as if they were loaded".I think that "as is" really changes the statement and opens up for doubt, uncertainty, and to presume the gun is unloaded, but to treat it as loaded; and to me, that's a very dangerous mindset to be in when handling any firearm.

Regarding the other rules of basic gun safety, we don't say "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy with a loaded gun"; no, we don't say that. The rule is "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy." Period. There is a finality in that. It's a statement of fact. There is no doubt in your mind. No "as is" to open that up.

My friend pointed out that in both statements (mine) "treat all guns as loaded" and his "treat all guns as if they were loaded", the doubt is only being created in my mind, and that in both cases, you're treating the firearm with respect to having a loaded chamber; but I see a difference between the two statements and that "as if" largely changes the meaning of that statement as well as opens up for a dangerous, doubtful mindset when handling firearms.

What do you say and think?

Discuss.

You are crossing your own argument by saying that "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy" is a fact.

"Treat every gun as if it is loaded" is a more factual statement than "treat every gun as loaded", because every gun is not, in fact, loaded.

Honestly, you're parsing words of no meaningful difference. It's a choice of style and grammar, and I don't see how the additional words of the rule as it is most commonly written would put doubt in anyone's mind. It is still a statement of an absolute, that you ALWAYS treat guns in a particular manner. Personally I think it drives the point home better because if nothing else it emphasizes the idea that it does not matter one iota if the gun is unloaded, you still treat it the same way.

I think what's most important is the positive I take away from your initial story that a relative is taking the time to teach basic firearms safety to a kid.

Yeah, the important thing is she knows not to mess with guns.

[Duff-Man]

My take...

A loaded firearm is a tool that needs to be treated with respect (I.e. follow "the rules", and don't be stupid etc.)

An unloaded firearm is an expensive paperweight.

The point is to never treat a firearm as something other than a firearm.