SPLIT ** General conversation about how ranges should be run

[XDM45]

+1 for ALL of sgruenhagen44's posts on page 5.

@All,

There are Bill's employees who are on this forum and trust me, they know, but they can't post because they can't speak for Bill's, but you can bet your last dollar, they've mentioned it to management I'm sure. Public forums can do a lot more than talking to management after trying and failing at that. Google "United Breaks Guitars" and "Sons of Maxwell" read up on what he did. This thread on this forum is EXACTLY what's needed. I've also mentioned things with no results in the past.

As for BPR, yes, I've seen things there, BUT never by the staff. As for the clientele at BPR, I've never been swept, but I have busted people loading on the tables, and overall, they do seem to be more knowledgeable because it's not a RABS (rent-a-boomstick) place.

I also agree about the comment that people should be booted at the first negligent act. There's no room for negligence like loading a pistol on a table behind the firing line, sweeping the place, and all the other not-so-safe-things people do. If I owned a range, I'd run it that way. The rules are simple actually:

1) Violate the 4 rules of firearm safety (you should know what they are or not handle a firearm) and you're out of here.
(This covers sweeping, loading on the table behind the firing line, etc.)

2) You MUST have one of the following to shoot at the range.
2a) A valid Minnesota PTP with proof of a basic pistol class training within 3 years time (some people may just keep renewing their PTP)
2b) A valid Minnesota PTC.
2c) A valid out-of-state PTP or PTC will be accepted IF the primary person you are with has a valid Minnesota PTC.

3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless. It's like firing a pistol at a target 1 foot away from your nose.Rifles = distance. Use the outdoor range. Same thing for shotguns, trap, skeet, all outdoors.

4) No aluminum casings and no steel rounds. Nothing over a certain fps indoors our outdoors. (Depends on the range's construction indoor and the available space outdoor, but ideally, land space would be 2-3 square miles)

5) It's a "magazine" not a "clip" - unless it really is a clip. In other words, don't annoy me and not know what the hell you're talking about.

6) If you can safely handle and control your firearm, feel free to rapid fire it.

7) We don't rent firearms. Man up and buy one like any freedom loving American does. I get trying before buying, a good idea, but if you just want to rent and not own a firearm, GTFO.

There'd be some other rules too, but those are the first ones I'd implement. I know it's not all-inclusive by any means (and what list really is anyway?), but it's a great start, don't you agree?

[walstien]

+1 for ALL of sgruenhagen44's posts on page 5.

@All,

There are Bill's employees who are on this forum and trust me, they know, but they can't post because they can't speak for Bill's, but you can bet your last dollar, they've mentioned it to management I'm sure. Public forums can do a lot more than talking to management after trying and failing at that. Google "United Breaks Guitars" and "Sons of Maxwell" read up on what he did. This thread on this forum is EXACTLY what's needed. I've also mentioned things with no results in the past.

As for BPR, yes, I've seen things there, BUT never by the staff. As for the clientele at BPR, I've never been swept, but I have busted people loading on the tables, and overall, they do seem to be more knowledgeable because it's not a RABS (rent-a-boomstick) place.

I also agree about the comment that people should be booted at the first negligent act. There's no room for negligence like loading a pistol on a table behind the firing line, sweeping the place, and all the other not-so-safe-things people do. If I owned a range, I'd run it that way. The rules are simple actually:

1) Violate the 4 rules of firearm safety (you should know what they are or not handle a firearm) and you're out of here.
(This covers sweeping, loading on the table behind the firing line, etc.)

2) You MUST have one of the following to shoot at the range.
2a) A valid Minnesota PTP with proof of a basic pistol class training within 3 years time (some people may just keep renewing their PTP)
2b) A valid Minnesota PTC.
2c) A valid out-of-state PTP or PTC will be accepted IF the primary person you are with has a valid Minnesota PTC.

3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless. It's like firing a pistol at a target 1 foot away from your nose.Rifles = distance. Use the outdoor range. Same thing for shotguns, trap, skeet, all outdoors.

4) No aluminum casings and no steel rounds. Nothing over a certain fps indoors our outdoors. (Depends on the range's construction indoor and the available space outdoor, but ideally, land space would be 2-3 square miles)

5) It's a "magazine" not a "clip" - unless it really is a clip. In other words, don't annoy me and not know what the hell you're talking about.

6) If you can safely handle and control your firearm, feel free to rapid fire it.

7) We don't rent firearms. Man up and buy one like any freedom loving American does. I get trying before buying, a good idea, but if you just want to rent and not own a firearm, GTFO.

There'd be some other rules too, but those are the first ones I'd implement. I know it's not all-inclusive by any means (and what list really is anyway?), but it's a great start, don't you agree?

You'd be out of business.

[sgruenhagen44]

yea I kinda agree. I don't see PTC and a basic pistol class as necessary to use a range but you can't be afraid to boot people. I'm not sayin ban them, just boot them for the day when they screw up. They will think twice next time. You really can't stress safety enough, I know all the statistics about shooting sports being the safest but at the same type no other sport has as extreme consequences when you screw up.

[xd ED]

You'd be out of business.

Beat me to it

[BigBlue]

2) You MUST have one of the following to shoot at the range.
2a) A valid Minnesota PTP with proof of a basic pistol class training within 3 years time (some people may just keep renewing their PTP)
2b) A valid Minnesota PTC.
2c) A valid out-of-state PTP or PTC will be accepted IF the primary person you are with has a valid Minnesota PTC.

Really? Seems a bit unrealistic. What about the guy who purchased a handgun years ago and doesn't buy more all the time, but has been practicing/training/competing for years? Not qualified to shoot in your range? What about bringing your kid to the range?

3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless. It's like firing a pistol at a target 1 foot away from your nose.Rifles = distance. Use the outdoor range. Same thing for shotguns, trap, skeet, all outdoors.

What a ridiculous statement.

4) No aluminum casings and no steel rounds. Nothing over a certain fps indoors our outdoors. (Depends on the range's construction indoor and the available space outdoor, but ideally, land space would be 2-3 square miles)

5) It's a "magazine" not a "clip" - unless it really is a clip. In other words, don't annoy me and not know what the hell you're talking about.

Give me a break. What, are you living on the Interwebz? Do you get spun up over people pronouncing 'to-mA-to' and 'to-mah-to' too?

7) We don't rent firearms. Man up and buy one like any freedom loving American does. I get trying before buying, a good idea, but if you just want to rent and not own a firearm, GTFO.

Let me get this straight... You want to discourage others from liking/using guns because they choose not to (or cannot afford to) own one? Seems like we need all the gun enthusiasts we can find right about now.

There'd be some other rules too, but those are the first ones I'd implement. I know it's not all-inclusive by any means (and what list really is anyway?), but it's a great start, don't you agree?

No

[Slayer_MN1]

#3 is definitely the dumbest thing I've heard all year. You obviously don't know much about rifle shooting...

[kerns bbo]

+1 for ALL of sgruenhagen44's posts on page 5.

@All, ..........

........ means (and what list really is anyway?), but it's a great start, don't you agree?

I agree that some people have no business being at the range. However, if Bill's wants to remain profitable they need to keep their doors open to those who are less educated on guns. Those people who didn't grow up around guns have to start somewhere. There is NO excuse for the RO to be breaking the rules however. It is up to the RO to set a good example and follow the rules to the t.

I agree your range idea would be safer for the shooters involved. The problem is that it would have some serious profitability issues.

[aht_six]

....Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless. It's like firing a pistol at a target 1 foot away from your nose....
.... In other words, don't annoy me and not know what the hell you're talking about....

Is it just me, or does making these two statements in the post seem a bit ironic.

[Evad]

2) You MUST have one of the following to shoot at the range.
2a) A valid Minnesota PTP with proof of a basic pistol class training within 3 years time (some people may just keep renewing their PTP)
2b) A valid Minnesota PTC.
2c) A valid out-of-state PTP or PTC will be accepted IF the primary person you are with has a valid Minnesota PTC.

Way too harsh. Unless you are all for registering guns, you can't assume everyone out there has a PTP or PTC that wants to shoot.

5) It's a "magazine" not a "clip" - unless it really is a clip. In other words, don't annoy me and not know what the hell you're talking about.

Semantics. You are getting way too hung up on that one IMO. Think how long you would have your job if you refused to help anyone using incorrect terminology You work in IT...I know you are used to incorrect terminology. To me, if someone says "clip" they probably just aren't that into it...

[XDM45]

You'd be out of business.

Beat me to it

Yeah, probably. That's the sad part.

I can imagine though that there is a HUGE demand for people who don't want to associate with the average joe / RABS crowd and only with other gun enthusiasts, people who take safety seriously, etc. that's not elitist, just sane and looking out for yourself so you don't get shot by an idiot being negligent with a firearm.

How many people here don't go to public ranges, (or do so on a very limited basis), but instead join a private club to shoot at (or own private land)?

Right now there's only around 110,000 PTC holders in MN, and how many of those people just got one to have it "just in case", don't carry, etc? The number gets even smaller I'm sure, so yeah, it's not a viable business model. More realistic would be to buy private land, have those rules, and just let people I k now use it.

Addendum:

@Evad

I know. What a time waster it is though when every person you deal with who doesn't know the right terminology tries to describe a problem and thinks its one thing, but it's another. They say "upload" but mean "download", etc. I think it's far worse in IT than it is for guns. At least clip is ballpark close to magazine, so it's not that bad, but IT can be hell.

@All,

No, I'm not clueless about rifles, but shooting one at a short distance is pointless in my opinion. They are meant for mid-to-long range shooting, not up in your face close like a pistol is.

Many disagree, cool. Some may agree, cool. Either way, to each our own opinion and our entitlement to it.

[sgruenhagen44]

I do agree with the shooting rifles part mostly because I find them annoying Those ARs make my .44 mag sound like a .22

[Evad]

yea I kinda agree. I don't see PTC and a basic pistol class as necessary to use a range but you can't be afraid to boot people. I'm not sayin ban them, just boot them for the day when they screw up. They will think twice next time. You really can't stress safety enough, I know all the statistics about shooting sports being the safest but at the same type no other sport has as extreme consequences when you screw up.

Booting people is a HUGE problem. You have two sides:

1. Boot for safety. I want everyone safe also...but personally wouldn't come back ever if that happened to me. Might as well be a lifetime ban for me. Not to mention the damaging word of mouth...or forum posts I could make.

2. Don't boot...roulette wheel is spinning each time you turn your head.

[xd ED]

#3 is definitely the dumbest thing I've heard all year. You obviously don't know much about rifle shooting...

I guess there's a lot of people doing it all wrong...

[Evad]

I do agree with the shooting rifles part mostly because I find them annoying Those ARs make my .44 mag sound like a .22

They are a bit loud

I watched a guy one lane from me burn through 30 round mags almost all "rapid fire" (one a second or so). I have to assume he was showing off how fast he could spend money or doing jam testing when I saw the paper.

[XDM45]

#3 is definitely the dumbest thing I've heard all year. You obviously don't know much about rifle shooting...

I guess there's a lot of people doing it all wrong...

1) I don't see ANY indoor range in MN that big. I've seen AR-15s and whatno fired at Bill's. Are you seriously suggesting that's ok?
2) That's a decent distance, but a rifle can still go further and it's going to be a hell of a lot louder indoors vs, out.
3) If it works for them shooting indoors like that, fine by me as long as I'm not there. I disagree with it, but that's my opinion.