Lead Level in Blood

[Maximus]

Correct as usual King Friday!

[The Verminator]

So in short and to my point........sometimes those urban legends ARE true.

If they're true, they're not urban legends.

If they're urban legends, they're not true.

[The Verminator]

I had a guy in my high school small engines class who volunteered to demonstrate the resistence of the human body when the teacher was demonstrating how a multi meter worked. His conductivity was 3 or 4 times what is should have been. He was sent to the Nurse and subsequently tested for heavy metals. He was loaded with lead, mercury etc. His family was not well off and they ate a ton of fish they caught themselves year round (4-5 meals a week) and they happened to live close to and fished almost daily some flooded iron ore pits and small lakes that get run off from the mining operations on the Range. The fish consumption was what they pinpointed, along with their well water which needed more frequent filter changes than they could afford.

I think I knew this guy! Was he from Chisholm? If so, he was also on the wrestling team, and the strange part of the story is that he never got to wrestle because there was nobody else in the 1800 pound weight class.

[yukonjasper]

Close, he was a wrestler, but he was a lightweight and was from Virginia - actually outside of Virginia - Britt or Iddington. Circa early '80's.

[xd ED]

I had a guy in my high school small engines class who volunteered to demonstrate the resistence of the human body when the teacher was demonstrating how a multi meter worked. His conductivity was 3 or 4 times what is should have been. He was sent to the Nurse and subsequently tested for heavy metals. He was loaded with lead, mercury etc. His family was not well off and they ate a ton of fish they caught themselves year round (4-5 meals a week) and they happened to live close to and fished almost daily some flooded iron ore pits and small lakes that get run off from the mining operations on the Range. The fish consumption was what they pinpointed, along with their well water which needed more frequent filter changes than they could afford.

I think I knew this guy! Was he from Chisholm? If so, he was also on the wrestling team, and the strange part of the story is that he never got to wrestle because there was nobody else in the 1800 pound weight class.

You grow 'em BIG up dare on da range

[The Verminator]

Close, he was a wrestler, but he was a lightweight and was from Virginia - actually outside of Virginia - Britt or Iddington. Circa early '80's.

He was a lightweight only until he got full of lead and mercury. Lonely super heavyweight after that.

I remember hearing that he drowned while fishing in one of those mine pits his family frequented.

They had trouble recovering the body and finally brought in a big mining company derrick, but it broke and, as far as I know, they never did get him out but instead had a funeral there for him and considered him buried at sea.

[goalie]

You want less lead?

1. Don't shoot indoors
2. Don't sort brass with your bare hands

Those two things are big.

[Larry.Y]

I am Larry Yatch founder and CEO of Sealed Mindset.

Our HVAC system was custom designed from the ground up to meet and exceed any current standards.

We have a recirculating system in which all range air is passed through three filters (only one is required).

We have a 2" pre-filter, a 6" mid-filter, and a medical grade HEPA filter. Once the air goes through this filter bank it is cleaner than what you breath on the street.

The air is then blown through a plenum wall, rather than vents with create dead air spaces, which ensures stable air movement throughout the entire range.

We move 14400 cfm (cubic feet per minute). Which means that we completely change the entire air volume of our range every 1.06 minutes.

Our system is completely computer controlled with over 10 separate aspects that are continuously monitored.

This web-based system is one of a kind for shooting ranges, and allows me to monitor and control it from anywhere on my phone.

You will not find a cleaner indoor range.

Feel free to stop by anytime and check it out for yourself.

You don't completely change the entire voulume of air every 1.06 minutes. You recirculate and filter the air in the room at a given rate. If you literally changed it, your heating and cooling cost would be quite high whenever the ambient (outside) air is of different temprearture than what you want to maintain inside.

I assume that one of the 10 aspects you monitor is not actual level of airborne lead, right? Do you know if that is sometimes actually measured? If yes, how often?
(Not attempting to claim that your ventilation system isn't good or great, just curious if you have a way to actually confirm what the lead levels are.)

First off I want to clarify that I am not an HVAC expert, but I did spend one year working with an HVAC engineering firm and the HVAC installation company designing this system. I did this to ensure that our HVAC system exceeded all standards of safety and efficiency.

A certain percentage of range air is expelled from the range (post filtration) and is replaced with fresh air. This percentage is controlled by the levels of CO, in which you are correct in saying is not filtered. This air exchange ensures that any vapor borne contaminates are kept at safe levels.

jsurberg is correct in explaining the process in testing lead levels. It is a function of the amount of airborne lead and the length of exposure. This is tested by a man carried device that continuously samples the air and then is sent to a lab to test. From my work with the engineers there was not a system available that tests, in real time, lead levels.

As a shooter you are exposed to lead indoors or outdoors because when you fire a shot a small portion of the gasses that are a byproduct of shooting you breath in. Unless, of course you have a significant rear quartering wind (I am sure someone on this forum will come up with other ways to prove the assertion wrong).

The key to indoor air quality is to ensure your filter scrubs the lead from the air so that you are not blowing contaminated air on the shooters.

We do that by having a multi-filter system in which we continuously monitor the pressure drop across each filter bank. When the pressure drop rises to specific levels the system automatically sends an email to our team. We then replace the filters. We have 2 complete changes of filters on hand so that we can respond instantly.

I also went to the additional and not required step of having all of our filters tested for lead levels, once we removed them, in order to have a complete picture of the filtration process.

[MNGunner]

A certain percentage of range air is expelled from the range (post filtration) and is replaced with fresh air. This percentage is controlled by the levels of CO, in which you are correct in saying is not filtered.

I wrote that it was filtered, not "entirely changed". Only a portion is actually changed ("fresh" outdoor air).

This air exchange ensures that any vapor borne contaminates are kept at safe levels.

A partial air exchange by itself does not, of course, "ensure" anything at all. The exchange will be relatively small. It is mostly up to the filtration system to remove the contaminants before the air is recirculated.

As a shooter you are exposed to lead indoors or outdoors because when you fire a shot a small portion of the gasses that are a byproduct of shooting you breath in. Unless, of course you have a significant rear quartering wind (I am sure someone on this forum will come up with other ways to prove the assertion wrong).

I assume that the filtration system at a range is set up in a similar fashion? (Direction of air flow is from behind the shooter toward the filter bank).

[MNGunner]

I have another question out of curiosity:
Is the lead released from a primer in the form or particles or vapor=gas?
Ifit is particles, what are the typical and smallest 1% particle size?
If it is a gas, that would mean individual molecules, right? (gas does not "stick together", it expands to fill an available volume, so it must consists of indivual molecules) if so, what is the molecular size of the form or lead compond? is it larger than the .3 microns that HEPA filters are designed to capture?

[xd ED]

I have another question out of curiosity:
Is the lead released from a primer in the form or particles or vapor=gas?
Ifit is particles, what are the typical and smallest 1% particle size?
If it is a gas, that would mean individual molecules, right? (gas does not "stick together", it expands to fill an available volume, so it must consists of indivual molecules) if so, what is the molecular size of the form or lead compond? is it larger than the .3 microns that HEPA filters are designed to capture?

I believe lead, and possibly mercury(if used in the primers) vapors are present in the gaseous byproducts of cartridge ignition. Some quantity of these vaporized metals precipitate as the gases cool. It seems reasonable that some does not.

[brad3579]

I found a pretty interesting article about the lead and primers and bullets.
http://dfuse.us/lead.html

"Now to shooting. Yes there are lead compounds (not pure lead) in the primers. These compounds will have a lead-poisoning effect on you but it is not as serious as pure lead. There are a number of different ways in which lead dust and fume originates at ranges. These include; primers using lead styphnate as a detonator, and the vaporization and splintering of the projectile as it passes through the weapon after being fired (NIOSH 1975) as well as vaporization of the base of the bullet. Studies by researches from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) measured air lead levels in the breathing zones of 90 persons firing .38-caliber revolvers. Shooters firing lead bullets had mean lead exposures of 110 gglm3, calculated as an 8 hour time weighted average (TWA). 89 percent of the recorded exposures exceeded the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure level (PEL) of 50 gg/m3 for occupational exposure to lead (Lee 1986). Although most indoor firing ranges are not subject to OSHA standards, lead exposures should and can be maintained below levels of concern for protection of human health. The question raised is was the lead due to the primers or the bullets or what percentage of each?"

[XDM45]

I found a pretty interesting article about the lead and primers and bullets.
http://dfuse.us/lead.html

"Now to shooting. Yes there are lead compounds (not pure lead) in the primers. These compounds will have a lead-poisoning effect on you but it is not as serious as pure lead. There are a number of different ways in which lead dust and fume originates at ranges. These include; primers using lead styphnate as a detonator, and the vaporization and splintering of the projectile as it passes through the weapon after being fired (NIOSH 1975) as well as vaporization of the base of the bullet. Studies by researches from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) measured air lead levels in the breathing zones of 90 persons firing .38-caliber revolvers. Shooters firing lead bullets had mean lead exposures of 110 gglm3, calculated as an 8 hour time weighted average (TWA). 89 percent of the recorded exposures exceeded the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure level (PEL) of 50 gg/m3 for occupational exposure to lead (Lee 1986). Although most indoor firing ranges are not subject to OSHA standards, lead exposures should and can be maintained below levels of concern for protection of human health. The question raised is was the lead due to the primers or the bullets or what percentage of each?"

Good info. Thanks for that.

[Nalez]

Something else that may help with lead levels is d-lead hand soap, which helps remove heavy metals:
https://www.dillonprecision.com/content ... _Hand_Soap

I keep a bottle in my range bag, and a bottle in my basement. This helps a bit; but do not think I have thought about having a respirator when going to indoor ranges....

[XDM45]

Something else that may help with lead levels is d-lead hand soap, which helps remove heavy metals:
https://www.dillonprecision.com/content ... _Hand_Soap

I keep a bottle in my range bag, and a bottle in my basement. This helps a bit; but do not think I have thought about having a respirator when going to indoor ranges....

That may not be a bad idea.