Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:04 pm

FJ540 wrote:Pete's huge gripe against dropping a round in the hole and making the extractor ride over the rim was explicitly against doing it in a 1911 with the internal extractor. He claimed it would cause excessive fatigue on the extractor and eventually cause it to crack and fail (of course, he'd seen it a zillion times). When the round is pulled out of the mag, the case head doesn't cause the extractor to move nearly as much, and it does make sense that it would be better (Sam, I know you know this). Springs wear out by being used after all.


If you're referring to 1911fan, he and I never got into that particular discussion, so your assumption that I ever heard this from him is false. If I had, I certainly would have believed it. That being said, there is still the issue that if you're ONLY doing this for the top round of your carry ammo, that means that doing it this way is less than 1% of the spring usage provided you shoot 100 rounds between carrying, and I think that figure should be more like 200 - 400 rounds or practice per reload with carry ammo, so we're talking .25% of the time. I'm having a hard time seeing how that small a percentage of use could cause early spring failure.

What is probably the most likely contributing factor here is a weak mag spring (particularly in a double stack!) or a mag body with a high friction interior phosphate coating. I had nosedives on pretty much ALL my EAA mags until I waxed the snot out of the interior of the mag, got a Wolff +10% mag spring, and then extended the feed ramp downwards by grinding out the lug some more. It's worthy to note that all the new EAA Stocks and Matches have full length feed ramps ground into the lug, so this had to have been a known problem. Also, 40's are pretty snappy, so you need a fairly stiff recoil spring.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby XDM45 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:04 pm

TH3180 wrote:Here you go sunshine. Chambered once and not by hand. These were show clear rounds. 0.050" of setback. Oh before the crimp is even brought up. 0.416" which is a little tighter then most people use when loading molly coated lead. Now you can say you've seen it.


That's a first.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby MasonK on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:10 pm

I took a round from the same box and chambered it about 20 times with only marginal setback (I have pics of the control and experiment cartridges). Now I'm going to let the test round sit for a couple of weeks and see what happens. I'll take another set of pics at the end of the test.

There might be more going on here, too. While cycling the shell I was getting 20-25% failure to extract where the round would get lodged in the slide against the ejector pin after leaving the chamber. I actually stopped because I was afraid the primer would hit the ejector pin and blow off the round. Oddly enough, this FTE never happened with the snap caps I have cycled through about a few hundred times in practice; it has only happened with live ammo.

I'm honestly a little worried about the function of this gun.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby XDM45 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:36 pm

MasonK wrote:I took a round from the same box and chambered it about 20 times with only marginal setback (I have pics of the control and experiment cartridges). Now I'm going to let the test round sit for a couple of weeks and see what happens. I'll take another set of pics at the end of the test.

There might be more going on here, too. While cycling the shell I was getting 20-25% failure to extract where the round would get lodged in the slide against the ejector pin after leaving the chamber. I actually stopped because I was afraid the primer would hit the ejector pin and blow off the round. Oddly enough, this FTE never happened with the snap caps I have cycled through about a few hundred times in practice; it has only happened with live ammo.

I'm honestly a little worried about the function of this gun.


Get it checked out by a gun smith.

My offer stands to do a 2 week experiment with my own MagTech ammo or one of yours, assuming you have the same UPC as I do on my MagTech boxes.

Based on your post, proof and example, plus that of the other poster who showed setback as of one time, I'm convinced I'm doing the right thing by keeping the chamber unloaded when I carry; however, that isn't really the best solution. Ideally, a round SHOULD be chambered, but with setback being such a huge issue for .45ACP, what options are there? Leaving a round in a long time causes setback, cycling the same round over and over causes setback, chambering it one time causes setback, and now maybe some of these are a fluke/rare, but still, .45ACP setback is common enough that it warrants some serious concern in my book. I'm also only using new ammo, no reloads, but still, the problem will occur.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby FJ540 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:41 pm

Rotate your ammo, or leave it in the pipe. Of course the first option requires actually shooting your gun. :lol:

I rarely clear my carry gun unless I happen to be shooting or cleaning it. It doesn't go in the safe at night (not very safe for me if it's in there when I need it), it lives near me - ready to work.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:07 pm

TH3180 wrote:
FJ540 wrote:Tim's working on figuring out why that's happening. There's a theory that the slides running too fast (under sprung) and the round's are being whacked by the barrel while still in the mag.

Yep that is one of the theories. I have solved the setback issue for the most part by loading longer, much longer. The mark is from one of three things. The bottom of the feed ramp, the hood of the barrel or the front of the mag. From doing the sharpie test, I'm 99% sure it's from the bottom of the feed ramp. Worst part is the marks show up 90% of the time and I can't duplicate it with hand cycling.


I agree that it's 99% likely that this is the bottom of the feed ramp. As I noted in my post, my older EAA Witnesses, not to be confused with the new Stocks and Matches, had a short feed ramp and a horizontal ridge running across the bottom of the ramp lug. With a full double stack mag the bullets were a bit nose low because the spring pressure at the top was lessened so much by internal friction between the rounds that they popped off the top pretty anemically.

Shown below is the lengthened barrel ramp, and you can sort of see the flat where the horizontal ridge went before. This improved feeding enormously, and along with polishing and waxing the inside of the mag body, made the gun very reliable.

Image

The other thing you can do to see if there's a difference is to chamber ammo with a full mag by dropping the slide on it, and chamber ONE round from the mag the same way. If the single rounds alone in the mag do not show setback and the full mags do, then the ammo is getting the nose jammed in low to the feed ramp.

To further illustrate this, look at an old EAA 10mm mag at the left, and a new Match 38 Super mag on the right: See the ridges on the 38 Super mag?? Those are there to cut down the physical contact between the rounds and the mag body, so they will feed reliably. If they didn't have to have those, the mag would probably take 2 - 3 more rounds, but the top round in a full 20 round mag would barely pop off the stack at all.

Image
Last edited by Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby MNGunGuy on Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:13 pm

I'm confused. How does a round sitting in the chamber for any length of time cause setback by itself? I never clear my gun and have the same round chambered for 30-60 days at a time. I just measured the round in the chamber at 1.124 and the rounds in the mag at 1.124 - 1.126. A 10 round sample out of a new box gives me 1.124 - 1.126.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby MasonK on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:13 pm

MNGunGuy wrote:I'm confused. How does a round sitting in the chamber for any length of time cause setback by itself? I never clear my gun and have the same round chambered for 30-60 days at a time. I just measured the round in the chamber at 1.124 and the rounds in the mag at 1.124 - 1.126. A 10 round sample out of a new box gives me 1.124 - 1.126.


Theoretically I don't think it should, but I've never seen setback to the degree I saw out of my 1911 last night. That, in addition to the ejection issues, I'm thinking I need a gun smith to look at it because I'm not comfortable carrying a gun that may only fire once before locking a spent case under the ejector pin. That's a PITA at a range, much less when you absolutely need your firearm working on your worst day.

As I said, though, I have a round in the pipe which I have chambered 20 times and will check it in a couple of weeks. Maybe it was just a weak case? Maybe it was a manufacturing defect and the bullet was factory-seated too deep. That's the part of the equation where we need to make a starting assumption and that assumtion may be incorrect.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby Erud on Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:31 pm

MasonK wrote:
MNGunGuy wrote:I'm confused. How does a round sitting in the chamber for any length of time cause setback by itself? I never clear my gun and have the same round chambered for 30-60 days at a time. I just measured the round in the chamber at 1.124 and the rounds in the mag at 1.124 - 1.126. A 10 round sample out of a new box gives me 1.124 - 1.126.


Theoretically I don't think it should, but I've never seen setback to the degree I saw out of my 1911 last night. That, in addition to the ejection issues, I'm thinking I need a gun smith to look at it because I'm not comfortable carrying a gun that may only fire once before locking a spent case under the ejector pin. That's a PITA at a range, much less when you absolutely need your firearm working on your worst day.

As I said, though, I have a round in the pipe which I have chambered 20 times and will check it in a couple of weeks. Maybe it was just a weak case? Maybe it was a manufacturing defect and the bullet was factory-seated too deep. That's the part of the equation where we need to make a starting assumption and that assumtion may be incorrect.


There is just no way that you can convince me that the length of time in the chamber had any relation to the amount of setback. I guarantee that the setback occurred when you first chambered the round and stayed the same until you took it out an looked at it. You could have left the round in the chamber for 40 more years and it would not have moved any further. I would guess that the round has too little neck tension, a bullet that is slightly under-sized or something along those lines.

I do have to admit that it cracks me up when XDM45 talks about operating a pistol the way it was designed to be in regards to chambering a round, but then continues to say how he carries the same weapon in a condition it was NOT designed for!

You just can't make this stuff up! :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby XDM45 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:30 pm

Erud wrote:I do have to admit that it cracks me up when XDM45 talks about operating a pistol the way it was designed to be in regards to chambering a round, but then continues to say how he carries the same weapon in a condition it was NOT designed for!

You just can't make this stuff up! :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:


Show me where it says you MUST carry the XDM I own with a round chambered because that is how it is designed.
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Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby jshuberg on Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:59 pm

You open carry a pistol for defense without a round in the pipe? Why?
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby TH3180 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:03 pm

Why not just OC a hammer?
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby XDM45 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:04 pm

jshuberg wrote:You open carry a pistol for defense without a round in the pipe? Why?


I'm sure this will cause a s-storm, but scroll back, read this entire thread.... the .45ACP seems to be prone to setback, which is the biggest issue for me.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby TH3180 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:08 pm

XDM45 wrote:
jshuberg wrote:You open carry a pistol for defense without a round in the pipe? Why?


I'm sure this will cause a s-storm, but scroll back, read this entire thread.... the .45ACP seems to be prone to setback, which is the biggest issue for me.

Where would that info be found? I think it would be interesting reading.
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Re: Holy Bullet Setback, Batman!

Postby XDM45 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:11 pm

TH3180 wrote:
XDM45 wrote:
jshuberg wrote:You open carry a pistol for defense without a round in the pipe? Why?


I'm sure this will cause a s-storm, but scroll back, read this entire thread.... the .45ACP seems to be prone to setback, which is the biggest issue for me.

Where would that info be found? I think it would be interesting reading.


1) This thread
2) http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=.45ACP+setback
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