Permit to Purchase Question

[Garret7857]

So I am selling my Para 1911 GI Expert and the only potential buyer who hasn't lowballed lower than what I need to sell it for said he hasn't renewed his permit to purchase in 3 years and said he's willing to print off his background check and since his drivers license number goes on the Bill of Sale, he says that should be ok for a private sale and Permit to Purchase is only really for buying from gun stores and he then talked alot about how if he went to renew his Permit to Purchase it would take two weeks where he lives. I'm not sure if this is legal or not and if it isn't I don't want to risk breaking federal law for $450 haha.

Any help would be greatly appreciated if I should do business with this guy or not.

Thanks,

Garret7857

[photogpat]

IANAL, and this is my opinion only. Consult appropriate parties for legal counsel, not the internet.
****************************
I won't cite the actual MN statutes due to time limitations...but...

The PTP (or PTC) is only required in Minnesota if purchasing a handgun or "military style assault weapon" from a licensed dealer, an FFL. Private party sales are exempt from this requirement.

You DO have an obligation under the statute to ensure that your buyer is not a prohibited person (felon, domestic violence, etc)...seeing a PTP or a PTC, though not a requirement, fulfills your due diligence in ensuring that your buyer is legal. Checking their matching driver's license (or other .gov issued photo ID - again, not a requirement) ensures that you're both residents of the same state, and that the PTP/PTC you're looking at belongs to them. You can also be on the hook if your buyer commits a crime using that firearm within the next year or if you sell it to them knowing that they intend to commit a crime with it.

The PTP and matching ID is more like a "really good idea" than a legal requirement. Its up to you (or an attorney) to decide if conducting an online background check fulfills the same purpose. I would say that you should be the one to run it - not the buyer...but thats just me.

Of course, someone will be along shortly to give you another opinion.

[Randygmn]

Legality aside, and IMO only, there's NO WAY in hell I'm selling a firearm in a private sale without seeing a PTP or PTC in addition to a DL. Sure it's otherwise legal but not the prudent path. The downside is too great. The potential headache easily outweighs the additional money. I'd wait for better offers.

[gun_fan111]

If he does not want to wait, I think you can have him pay for a transfer at an FFL. At one point I thought I read something about an option of some sort of premium processing that does not require a permit. I may be way off though...

[LarryFlew]

nothing required for private purchase other than showing up with the cash. For pc of mind a lot of guys do require PTC or PTP but IMO his drivers license and a bill of sale (also not required but a good CYA) is sufficient to stop anything from coming back on you.

He can't transfer at an FFL without one or the other permits.

[Garret7857]

nothing required for private purchase other than showing up with the cash. For pc of mind a lot of guys do require PTC or PTP but IMO his drivers license and a bill of sale (also not required but a good CYA) is sufficient to stop anything from coming back on you.

He can't transfer at an FFL without one or the other permits.

alright. we both agreed to a bill of sale that we each get and I believe the one I have has a Driver's License # field on it. I just wanted to be double sure mainly because if I unknowingly did something illegal, not only would I face possible jail and I would never be able to get a law enforcement job past being a security guard at a strip mall (no offense mall cops ) but also I would never want to risk my right to be able to purchase more guns in the future!

I'll wait around for a few more people to put in their words of wisdom. Great advice so far though thanks guys/gals.

[xd ED]

nothing required for private purchase other than showing up with the cash. For pc of mind a lot of guys do require PTC or PTP but IMO his drivers license and a bill of sale (also not required but a good CYA) is sufficient to stop anything from coming back on you.

He can't transfer at an FFL without one or the other permits.

alright. we both agreed to a bill of sale that we each get and I believe the one I have has a Driver's License # field on it. I just wanted to be double sure mainly because if I unknowingly did something illegal, not only would I face possible jail and I would never be able to get a law enforcement job past being a security guard at a strip mall (no offense mall cops ) but also I would never want to risk my right to be able to purchase more guns in the future!

I'll wait around for a few more people to put in their words of wisdom. Great advice so far though thanks guys/gals.

I might let you look at the info on my DL, briefly. But you won't be recording anything beyond my name. I advise the same of your private info.
FWIW, a reasonably priced firearm is not difficult to sell, legitimately.
Find a buyer you're comfortable with, or wait till the buyer gets a permit.

[Garret7857]

nothing required for private purchase other than showing up with the cash. For pc of mind a lot of guys do require PTC or PTP but IMO his drivers license and a bill of sale (also not required but a good CYA) is sufficient to stop anything from coming back on you.

He can't transfer at an FFL without one or the other permits.

alright. we both agreed to a bill of sale that we each get and I believe the one I have has a Driver's License # field on it. I just wanted to be double sure mainly because if I unknowingly did something illegal, not only would I face possible jail and I would never be able to get a law enforcement job past being a security guard at a strip mall (no offense mall cops ) but also I would never want to risk my right to be able to purchase more guns in the future!

I'll wait around for a few more people to put in their words of wisdom. Great advice so far though thanks guys/gals.

I might let you look at the info on my DL, briefly. But you won't be recording anything beyond my name. I advise the same of your private info.
FWIW, a reasonably priced firearm is not difficult to sell, legitimately.
Find a buyer you're comfortable with, or wait till the buyer gets a permit.

I just looked at it and it's just name/address. Past couple people I sold guns too never had a problem with me putting their address on their but I understand not going past the name.

[grimbeaver]

In the Reference section of this site there's a Bill of Sale form:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11498

I will admit I find the level of detail a little unsettling. Even as the seller I don't want to give the buyer that much info about me so I doubt the buyer wants to give me that much info. When I do sell something I'm kind of leaning towards see permit and matching drivers license. Record a bill of sale with simply name, permit number (maybe even just last x digits) and gun info. Just enough that if it comes back to you, you can prove reasonable due diligence. But again as others said, just my opinion, not legal advice, etc.

[Thunder71]

Until they can give us access to the info we would need to make an educated decision, there's only so much we can do.

A simple app that scans the DL and sends back a red or green light would be great...

[LarryFlew]

Until they can give us access to the info we would need to make an educated decision, there's only so much we can do.

A simple app that scans the DL and sends back a red or green light would be great...

I prefer not to have any firearms info tied to my drivers license let alone enough for an NICS check for red or green light

[george]

Transfers Between Unlicensed Individuals: No Background Checks
In contrast to the provisions governing sales by licensed dealers, there is no provision in federal
or Minnesota law that requires background checks, record-keeping, or location restrictions for
firearms transfers between private individuals who are not FFLs, other than certain federal law
restrictions pertaining to acquiring or disposing of firearms across state lines.
Page 40
http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/firearmsgd.pdf

I'd stick this on disc for reference. To many pages to print. I still keep track of private sales anyway.

[hornswaggle]

I think the legal requirements have been clearly answered so I'll offer my opinion to your question about what others feel comfortable doing. As a buyer I'm in the camp that would not want my DL and PTC copied or recorded in any way for the sellers records. I would prefer no records at all but I'm okay with a bill of sale that has my name and address and I will show them my DL and PTC/PTP if they ask but would not allow them to record it. I have only purchased a couple firearms from private sale and both times it was from someone I knew and nothing was recorded. Those firearms have since been lost and/or destroyed... If selling to someone I did not know I would require the same bill of sale and just simply state or have a check box that indicates they showed me a qualified Mn DL and PTP. IANAL YMMV

[LarryFlew]

I do have a line on my bill of sale that says "type of ID used" which is usually answered by "drivers license" with nothing else. You are both signing them too. You would be covered if you did nothing but I like the extra feeling of seeing some kind of picture ID.

Add or subtract info as you and buyer feel fit as everything is optional:

bill of sale for firearms -- transfer of ownership

For $ 235 received, I, Larry Flew, have sold Joe Smith One (1) Bersa 844 serial number 0ooooo on 4/25/2013

Direct Sale no FFL


Buyer: Joe Smith

Address: Glencoe, MN

Type of ID used: MN DL

Phone # 555-121-1212

Seller: Larry Flew

Address: Waconia, MN

Phone #: 555-444-5454




Buyer Signature:_______________________________________



Seller Signature: _______________________________________

[george]

I actually use the one in the reference section and fill whatever is agreed on.
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11498
Works great and Thank You for sharing.