Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby smurfman on Tue May 28, 2019 10:05 pm

That is good news, I just wish one could use NV/Thermal/light year round for coyotes. I have them in the yard a couple times a week checking out the chicken coup or challenging my dogs and it is frustrating not being able to get a good shot on them. I've hit more than one but I prefer a quick kill to one running off and dying someplace. They have buggered up the water in the drainage ditch that our cattle drink from and, worse of all, I've had coyotes die up wind of the house and did not find them until they began to smell.

A clean kill and I could haul the carcass out to the backside of the pasture where the smell would not reach the house. And the carcass would make a nice bait for other coyotes.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Jackpine Savage on Wed May 29, 2019 7:19 am

smurfman wrote:That is good news, I just wish one could use NV/Thermal/light year round for coyotes. I have them in the yard a couple times a week checking out the chicken coup or challenging my dogs and it is frustrating not being able to get a good shot on them. I've hit more than one but I prefer a quick kill to one running off and dying someplace. They have buggered up the water in the drainage ditch that our cattle drink from and, worse of all, I've had coyotes die up wind of the house and did not find them until they began to smell.

A clean kill and I could haul the carcass out to the backside of the pasture where the smell would not reach the house. And the carcass would make a nice bait for other coyotes.


Near as I can tell NV/Thermal will not have the same restrictions as artificial light. But I'm not a lawyer.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Bearcatrp on Wed May 29, 2019 8:26 am

Ghost wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:What are peoples preferred night vision scopes for varmints?

Thermal for scope. I have Flir.

Which one? I just pulled my ad for my PTS233 now that we can use these. Deciding on which rifle it goes on, 300 BO with suppressor or Grendel.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Ghost on Wed May 29, 2019 9:19 am

Bearcatrp wrote:
Ghost wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:What are peoples preferred night vision scopes for varmints?

Thermal for scope. I have Flir.

Which one? I just pulled my ad for my PTS233 now that we can use these. Deciding on which rifle it goes on, 300 BO with suppressor or Grendel.

I have the older RS-32 with the 35mm lens
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby yukonjasper on Wed May 29, 2019 4:45 pm

At $2300, I think I may stick with the Nikon until I can prove to myself that I will hunt enough to justify the expense. It is very high on the cool scale.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Jackpine Savage on Wed May 29, 2019 8:14 pm

I just ran across this on another forum. No frills. $1,200.

https://www.atncorp.com/thermal-scope-thor-lt-3-6x
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby smurfman on Thu May 30, 2019 11:13 am

Jackpine Savage wrote:
smurfman wrote:That is good news, I just wish one could use NV/Thermal/light year round for coyotes. I have them in the yard a couple times a week checking out the chicken coup or challenging my dogs and it is frustrating not being able to get a good shot on them. I've hit more than one but I prefer a quick kill to one running off and dying someplace. They have buggered up the water in the drainage ditch that our cattle drink from and, worse of all, I've had coyotes die up wind of the house and did not find them until they began to smell.

A clean kill and I could haul the carcass out to the backside of the pasture where the smell would not reach the house. And the carcass would make a nice bait for other coyotes.


Near as I can tell NV/Thermal will not have the same restrictions as artificial light. But I'm not a lawyer.


Do you have something besides what has been posted here for that belief? I would like to read it and figure out someone to contact to allow greater use of NV/TI. I haven't seen anything further regarding the rule changes needed and feel the DNR will let NV/TI be used under the same conditions as lights as getting even that minor usage was akin to pulling teeth. That does not help me at all in legally mitigating problems around the house for much of the year.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby bstrawse on Thu May 30, 2019 1:44 pm

smurfman wrote:
Jackpine Savage wrote:
smurfman wrote:That is good news, I just wish one could use NV/Thermal/light year round for coyotes. I have them in the yard a couple times a week checking out the chicken coup or challenging my dogs and it is frustrating not being able to get a good shot on them. I've hit more than one but I prefer a quick kill to one running off and dying someplace. They have buggered up the water in the drainage ditch that our cattle drink from and, worse of all, I've had coyotes die up wind of the house and did not find them until they began to smell.

A clean kill and I could haul the carcass out to the backside of the pasture where the smell would not reach the house. And the carcass would make a nice bait for other coyotes.


Near as I can tell NV/Thermal will not have the same restrictions as artificial light. But I'm not a lawyer.


Do you have something besides what has been posted here for that belief? I would like to read it and figure out someone to contact to allow greater use of NV/TI. I haven't seen anything further regarding the rule changes needed and feel the DNR will let NV/TI be used under the same conditions as lights as getting even that minor usage was akin to pulling teeth. That does not help me at all in legally mitigating problems around the house for much of the year.


1) The bill hasn't been signed by the governor yet. Once signed, it doesn't take effect until August 1st.
2) The Bill is SF7 - you can view it on the legislature's website: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/bill.p ... n=1&y=2019. Goto line 131.17 for the applicable changes.
3) The DNR won't share any information about rulemaking until the governor has signed the bill.
4) If we learn something from the DNR, we'll be sure to share via email and here on this forum.

If you want to talk with someone about the bill at DNR, I'd wait until the Governor signs the bill - and give them a bit of time to sort out the rules.

Thanks,
Bryan
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Jackpine Savage on Thu May 30, 2019 8:01 pm

Do you have something besides what has been posted here for that belief?


No, only what I've read here. The key line from SF 7 is this.

(2) a person taking coyote or fox as provided under section 97B.075 and rules adopted
under section 97B.605.


It only references 97B.075 which says:

97B.075 HUNTING RESTRICTED BETWEEN EVENING AND MORNING.
(a) A person may not take protected wild animals, except raccoon and fox, with a firearm between the evening and morning times established by commissioner's rule, except as provided in this section.

(b) Big game and wolves may be taken from one-half hour before sunrise until one-half hour after sunset.

(c) Except as otherwise prescribed by the commissioner on or before the Saturday nearest October 8, waterfowl may be taken from one-half hour before sunrise until sunset during the entire season prescribed by the commissioner.


and 97B.605 which says:

97B.605 COMMISSIONER MAY RESTRICT TAKING SMALL GAME ANIMALS.
The commissioner may by rule set open seasons for, prescribe limits and restrictions on, and designate areas where small game as defined in section 97A.015 may be taken and possessed.


It doesn't reference 97B.081 which references artificial light and has the Jan 1 to Mar 15th restrictions.

Coyotes are unprotected so 97B.075 and 97B.605 shouldn't apply.

But this is Minnesota, the state where nothing is allowed. The commissioner will probably come up with five pages of ********.

Some days it is tempting to move to North Dakota, where the laws are fewer and understandable, rather than the book that MN publishes. Here's North Dakota's coyote regulations:

https://gf.nd.gov/hunting/coyote

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Firearms at night – Coyote and fox (red and gray) may be hunted at any hour. Any person who engages in coyote or fox hunting from 30 minutes after sunset to 30 minutes before sunrise must hunt exclusively on foot. Use of night vision or thermal imaging equipment is allowed. Use of spotlights or any other artificial light, including infrared lights, are prohibited.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Bearcatrp on Thu May 30, 2019 8:23 pm

yukonjasper wrote:At $2300, I think I may stick with the Nikon until I can prove to myself that I will hunt enough to justify the expense. It is very high on the cool scale.

Look through someone’s thermal or NV and you will change your mind and get one. I like thermal over NV but everyone is different. I stretched getting the PTS233 but glad I did. Good for PID out to 100 yards or a little further. Also works good to scan the house in winter to see where heat is leaking out. You can find used ones under $2000 on AR15.com.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Ghost on Fri May 31, 2019 8:10 pm

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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby smurfman on Fri May 31, 2019 9:41 pm

97B.081, also found on page 30 of the 2018 hunting regulations, states quite plainly that one is not allowed to cast a light to locate or take any big game, small game or unprotected species except for a few very limited exceptions. That statute seems to not be affected by the new statute so the old one would still be in full affect.

I'm pretty sure that the hunting synopsis of 97B.081 used the phrase "wild animal" to define what could be taken using lights in years past. That may have changed at some point but the heading for the statute still uses "wild animals". It might be in the fishing regs but I do recall the statute went so far that one could not even use lights to take frogs. Lastly, I had a nice talk with a conservation officer one night regarding the flashlight taped to my 10/22. When I explained I was shooting feral cats rather than wild animals and pointed out the pile of carcasses stacked along the fenceline, he wished me good luck and a good night.

Mirroring the artificial light rules would be the simplest change is the basis for my belief that NV/TI would follow that path. I don't see the rules regarding artificial lights becoming more lax so doubt it will be any different for NV/TI. I dearly hope I'm wrong but this is Minnesota where change moves in increments at a glacial pace.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby OldmanFCSA on Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:47 am

So now I need to coordinate the use of NV/FLIR on my RPR 338LM with my suppressor so I'm able to shoot targeted animals within the city limits from outside city limits without being charged with firing a gun within city limits. With an accurate range of over 1 mile this will cover a lot of territory. Sonic crack will be the telltale as projectile passes nearby.

As a Special Forces Sniper friend of mine once posted (and I use occasionally), " If you hear a bullet whiz past your head, you will know I have missed, and I don't miss very often!" Only this would be applied to the targeted animal being pursued.
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby Jackpine Savage on Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:56 am

smurfman wrote:97B.081, also found on page 30 of the 2018 hunting regulations, states quite plainly that one is not allowed to cast a light to locate or take any big game, small game or unprotected species except for a few very limited exceptions. That statute seems to not be affected by the new statute so the old one would still be in full affect.

I'm pretty sure that the hunting synopsis of 97B.081 used the phrase "wild animal" to define what could be taken using lights in years past. That may have changed at some point but the heading for the statute still uses "wild animals". It might be in the fishing regs but I do recall the statute went so far that one could not even use lights to take frogs. Lastly, I had a nice talk with a conservation officer one night regarding the flashlight taped to my 10/22. When I explained I was shooting feral cats rather than wild animals and pointed out the pile of carcasses stacked along the fenceline, he wished me good luck and a good night.

Mirroring the artificial light rules would be the simplest change is the basis for my belief that NV/TI would follow that path. I don't see the rules regarding artificial lights becoming more lax so doubt it will be any different for NV/TI. I dearly hope I'm wrong but this is Minnesota where change moves in increments at a glacial pace.


I guess it boils down to whether or not they classify night vision as artificial light. It wouldn't make sense to me, but little does anymore.

I just ordered a PVS-14 8-)
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Re: Night vision/thermal in Minnesota

Postby smurfman on Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:40 am

Night vision may not cast an artificial light but the masses who are not fluent on the subtleties will group them together for whatever purposes. It's been done before and I don't see why there would be a change now, especially as it was part of an omnibus bill rather than a stand alone one.

Red dot sights were considered illegal when they first came out as the device used a light for the aiming point. It took a few years to get that ruling changed. It doesn't make sense that this should have happened but it did as the law was applied literally.

Tangentially, this matches up with spinning wing decoys for migratory waterfowl. Originally, the remote control models were not allowed due to the laws against using devices using electronic waves to take game in this state. It was several years for that to change.

Probably more on track, I just recalled posts from the now defunct MN DNR forum where the early Generation I night vision scopes were being used for shooting coyotes at night after the IR light was disabled or removed to conform with the light restriction. It conformed with the law at the time but the law was changed a couple of years later.

In any event, if these devices are managed like artificial lights (and I don't see any compelling reason they wouldn't be) they will be of very limited use. The limitation to shotguns is a major hinderance due to range. The short window of use is another, it does not take into account the rest of the year when predation on domestic animals is often the highest and the daytime opportunities are the least. As someone looking for a year round means of predator control, this new law is a step in the right direction but nothing to get excited about. I hope I am being too pessimistic but with the foot dragging due to poaching concerns that occurred during the change to allow the limited use of lights, I don't hold much hope for night vision. The bright spot was when suppressors were legalized so maybe my hopes should be a little higher though, I can't be disappointed if I stay here.
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