The Truth about 6.5 Ammo

[Ghost]

If you are shooting a deer at 500 yards with a 12 inch 6.5 Grendel you are not a hunter.

More like a predator

[Holland&Holland]

More like an unethical person

[Ghost]

More like an unethical person

So that's why you like 6.8 more, it limits you to ethical hunting ranges. Got it.

[Holland&Holland]

More like an unethical person

So that's why you like 6.8 more, it limits you to ethical hunting ranges. Got it.

The 6.8 comment was tongue in cheek. Both are adequate for deer at reasonable ranges and honestly are a horse a piece.

What I take issue with is when someone tries to portray a low power round like the grendal as a long range hunting option.

I thought that was clear.

[Ghost]

More like an unethical person

So that's why you like 6.8 more, it limits you to ethical hunting ranges. Got it.

The 6.8 comment was tongue in cheek. Both are adequate for deer at reasonable ranges and honestly are a horse a piece.

What I take issue with is when someone tries to portray a low power round like the grendal as a long range hunting option.

I thought that was clear.

I'm not advocating that people shoot beyond their skill level.

Many whitetails have been taken in the 300-500 yard range. Elk 400+.

Longest kill I know of was 752 yards that DRT'd an antelope with a high shoulder spine shot and complete pass through.

Hog hunters have been lining them up and getting two for ones at triple digit ranges.

The 6.5 bullets are extremely efficient and highly effective they don't need high speed.

[Holland&Holland]

I'm not advocating that people shoot beyond their skill level.

Many whitetails have been taken in the 300-500 yard range. Elk 400+.

Longest kill I know of was 752 yards that DRT'd an antelope with a high shoulder spine shot and complete pass through.

Hog hunters have been lining them up and getting two for ones at triple digit ranges.

The 6.5 bullets are extremely efficient and highly effective they don't need high speed.

With a grendal? I have no issue with someone shooting at their skill level, however please use the correct tool to do it.

[Ghost]

I'm not advocating that people shoot beyond their skill level.

Many whitetails have been taken in the 300-500 yard range. Elk 400+.

Longest kill I know of was 752 yards that DRT'd an antelope with a high shoulder spine shot and complete pass through.

Hog hunters have been lining them up and getting two for ones at triple digit ranges.

The 6.5 bullets are extremely efficient and highly effective they don't need high speed.

With a grendal? I have no issue with someone shooting at their skill level, however please use the correct tool to do it.

Yes, with a Grendel

[Holland&Holland]

I'm not advocating that people shoot beyond their skill level.

Many whitetails have been taken in the 300-500 yard range. Elk 400+.

Longest kill I know of was 752 yards that DRT'd an antelope with a high shoulder spine shot and complete pass through.

Hog hunters have been lining them up and getting two for ones at triple digit ranges.

The 6.5 bullets are extremely efficient and highly effective they don't need high speed.

With a grendal? I have no issue with someone shooting at their skill level, however please use the correct tool to do it.

Yes, with a Grendel

Ok, you win, the Grendel is the worlds most perfect cartridge, it has more power than navel artillery and can drop an elephant at 2 miles. Nothing else on the planet can top it.

[Ghost]

With a grendal? I have no issue with someone shooting at their skill level, however please use the correct tool to do it.

Yes, with a Grendel

Ok, you win, the Grendel is the worlds most perfect cartridge, it has more power than navel artillery and can drop an elephant at 2 miles. Nothing else on the planet can top it.

Not saying that

[hard h2o]

It seems to me that a lot of these new AR rounds are an attempt to fit a round into the magazine/boltface envelope of the AR. As such they are a compromise. You will have the case capacity of a .223 or similar that you are using to push whatever caliber bullet you are using. Case diameter might vary but case length will generally stay constant. Bullet seating might change to increase capacity.

One reason (other than budget) that I do not have an AR yet is they seem to be more of a toy than anything else. If I want a tool to shoot long range then I will choose some sort of bolt action rifle that does not limit me to a certain case to function. It will be easier to get to shoot accurately. Bullet seating depth can be adjusted more readily to attempt to get better accuracy. I am not concerned with semi-auto operation so case resizing is not necessarily full length.

I was in the military and shot on a pistol team and took part in numerous training exercises related to that. Part of that was training to be able to train others in marksmanship. I was able to shoot on 1000 meter ranges with an iron sighted M16A1. I know the AR platform can be very accurate on the range, however shooting at paper you are not as concerned with power at a given range as you are with making small groups.

Why use a compromise cartridge for hunting (especially long range)? Just to say you can do it with an AR? I would rather take a full length cartridge with more power shooting out of a hopefully more accurate bolt action. I would rather not artificially hobble myself with an under-powered chambering.

[Ghost]

It seems to me that a lot of these new AR rounds are an attempt to fit a round into the magazine/boltface envelope of the AR. As such they are a compromise. You will have the case capacity of a .223 or similar that you are using to push whatever caliber bullet you are using. Case diameter might vary but case length will generally stay constant. Bullet seating might change to increase capacity.

One reason (other than budget) that I do not have an AR yet is they seem to be more of a toy than anything else. If I want a tool to shoot long range then I will choose some sort of bolt action rifle that does not limit me to a certain case to function. It will be easier to get to shoot accurately. Bullet seating depth can be adjusted more readily to attempt to get better accuracy. I am not concerned with semi-auto operation so case resizing is not necessarily full length.

I was in the military and shot on a pistol team and took part in numerous training exercises related to that. Part of that was training to be able to train others in marksmanship. I was able to shoot on 1000 meter ranges with an iron sighted M16A1. I know the AR platform can be very accurate on the range, however shooting at paper you are not as concerned with power at a given range as you are with making small groups.

Why use a compromise cartridge for hunting (especially long range)? Just to say you can do it with an AR? I would rather take a full length cartridge with more power shooting out of a hopefully more accurate bolt action. I would rather not artificially hobble myself with an under-powered chambering.

Do you know how I know that you haven't shot a nice AR?

[Erud]

It seems to me that a lot of these new AR rounds are an attempt to fit a round into the magazine/boltface envelope of the AR. As such they are a compromise. You will have the case capacity of a .223 or similar that you are using to push whatever caliber bullet you are using. Case diameter might vary but case length will generally stay constant. Bullet seating might change to increase capacity.

One reason (other than budget) that I do not have an AR yet is they seem to be more of a toy than anything else. If I want a tool to shoot long range then I will choose some sort of bolt action rifle that does not limit me to a certain case to function. It will be easier to get to shoot accurately. Bullet seating depth can be adjusted more readily to attempt to get better accuracy. I am not concerned with semi-auto operation so case resizing is not necessarily full length.

I was in the military and shot on a pistol team and took part in numerous training exercises related to that. Part of that was training to be able to train others in marksmanship. I was able to shoot on 1000 meter ranges with an iron sighted M16A1. I know the AR platform can be very accurate on the range, however shooting at paper you are not as concerned with power at a given range as you are with making small groups.

Why use a compromise cartridge for hunting (especially long range)? Just to say you can do it with an AR? I would rather take a full length cartridge with more power shooting out of a hopefully more accurate bolt action. I would rather not artificially hobble myself with an under-powered chambering.

Everything is a compromise. There are some really capable AR-based cartridges out there, and the Grendel is definitely one of them. Since you state right away in your post that you have never owned an AR, this topic might not be in your wheelhouse.

[Holland&Holland]

Yes there are some capable AR cartridges and there have been tremendous improvements in bullet construction, that said the responsibility of the ethical hunter has not changed. To shoot at elk sized game at 400 yards with a Grendel is not ethical. Those that think it is please post the statistics of how many shot at, at those ranges were wounded and never recovered. Don't get me wrong, at reasonable ranges AR chamberings can be very effective, but this is pushing the limits of the cartridge and their are much better tools in the tool box to make an ethical kill.

Just because you can do something does not mean you should. 6.5mm bullets very well may be amazing, but they are not magical. The 6.5 Grendel is NOT a 400 yard Elk cartridge, it just isn't even if you wish it so.

[Erud]

Yes there are some capable AR cartridges and there have been tremendous improvements in bullet construction, that said the responsibility of the ethical hunter has not changed. To shoot at elk sized game at 400 yards with a Grendel is not ethical. Those that think it is please post the statistics of how many shot at, at those ranges were wounded and never recovered. Don't get me wrong, at reasonable ranges AR chamberings can be very effective, but this is pushing the limits of the cartridge and their are much better tools in the tool box to make an ethical kill.

Just because you can do something does not mean you should. 6.5mm bullets very well may be amazing, but they are not magical. The 6.5 Grendel is NOT a 400 yard Elk cartridge, it just isn't even if you wish it so.

Are you arguing with me, or someone else? Can you give a breakdown of minimum ethical cartridges for various animals at various distances? I am not a hunter, so something like that would be useful if I ever decided to start.

[Holland&Holland]

Yes there are some capable AR cartridges and there have been tremendous improvements in bullet construction, that said the responsibility of the ethical hunter has not changed. To shoot at elk sized game at 400 yards with a Grendel is not ethical. Those that think it is please post the statistics of how many shot at, at those ranges were wounded and never recovered. Don't get me wrong, at reasonable ranges AR chamberings can be very effective, but this is pushing the limits of the cartridge and their are much better tools in the tool box to make an ethical kill.

Just because you can do something does not mean you should. 6.5mm bullets very well may be amazing, but they are not magical. The 6.5 Grendel is NOT a 400 yard Elk cartridge, it just isn't even if you wish it so.

Are you arguing with me, or someone else? Can you give a breakdown of minimum ethical cartridges for various animals at various distances? I am not a hunter, so something like that would be useful if I ever decided to start.

I am commenting on several comments, yours included, so in a way yes I am arguing with you.

To your 2nd question, I would love to but it would take sometime to compile. I do consider myself a student of ballistic study and real world application of said study.

Lets just start with deer sized game (and I further contend this refers to your average whitetail, not trophy class). I would contend that the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are 200 yard or less cartridges. If your distance increases then your cartridge would need to step up to the AR-10 or .308 family of cartridges (.308, 7mm-08, 6.5 Creed, .260, etc).

I have shot deer and studied the wound channels using 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39, .30-30, .223.

I have also shot deer with .308, 7mm08, 7x57, .25-06, .270, 7mm mag, .303 brit, .243

These have all been with varying bullet construction and at varying distances. I need much more real world experience to write the book on this of course but there is truly knowledge to be gained on seeing how various bullets perform in deer pushed at various velocities. Now, no doubt the old adage it is the Indian not the arrow holds true as many a poacher has been known to be very effective with a .22lr but that is typically as close range and with very specific shot placement. Here we are talking about extreme ranges and at the extreme end of the performance spectrum for some of these cartridges. That is not where and ethical hunter plays IMHO. An ethical hunter is looking for proven performance and a safety factor in that performance to account for the conditions one might encounter in the field.

Hope this helps