Gun Safe Access question

[ttousi]

just store it in a laundry basket

[doctowr]

just store it in a laundry basket

[1911fan]

just store it in a laundry basket

Do not take this advice, because as anyone who has met Ttousi more than once knows,

A, he owns only one set of clothes.

B, he never does laundry

C. he has never had a laundry basket of his own, shopping cart yes, laundry basket, no

[MostlyHarmless]

Regarding fingerprint readers --- As with any lock there is a tradeoff between speed of access and security. In some readers this is adjustable, others not. I have a fingerprint reader on my computer which is reliable and fast, and reasonably secure, although sometimes I have to swipe a second time if I don't run my finger across quite straight. The good ones cost more and I suppose the safe manufacturers have several quality levels from which to choose.

Regarding batteries on electronic combination locks --- well, yes you do have to change them once in a while, but the good locks allow you to do this without opening the safe, and give a fair amount of warning, usually extra beeps whenever you open the safe.

Regarding EMP --- I'm not too concerned. Most gun safes make a pretty good Faraday cage, and it would take a really solid pulse to do much, in which case you won't have to worry about getting the safe open because you will be engaged in a conversation at the Pearly Gates regarding the nature of your upcoming accommodations. And if we were to grant hypothetically that there might be EMP enough to bollox up the lock and you're still there to open it, you can always cut the safe open, a task that should take no more than 15 minutes with hand tools with anything sold as a "gun safe."

Lots of people have trouble opening a good, group II combination lock under pressure (like fingerprint readers, there are speed and security tradeoffs -- if you have a bank grade one, the tolerance is 0.5 digits and you have to go slower than the commercial ones where it's 1.5 digits). You have to have light, and glasses if you need them, and fingers that aren't shaking.

[ComradeBurg]

Depending on the brand of safe you may be able to switch out the electronic lock for a mechanical one. It all depends on if the company that makes the safe has a single lock mechanism that works with all their locks or completely different setups for each type. The best thing you can do is call the safe manufacturer and ask them.

Since we're all talking about lock types I might as well pitch in. My current safe has an electronic lock although honestly I'd prefer a mechanical one (it was last years model and they cut me one heck of a deal on it so I figured what the heck). Each lock type has ups and downs.

Mechanical locks are the most fool proof mechanisms. They require no batteries and aren't harmed by already mentioned EMP. On the other hand it can be difficult or even impossible (some manufacturers don't have the option) to change the code. This is important if somebody figured it out by seeing it written somewhere or just caught it over your shoulder. Likewise you have to worry about drift. Mechanical locks can after some time drift a digit off. What this means is if your lock combination is 1-2-3 it could end up being 1-3-3 or 1-2-4 or any other combination with one digit off on one of the disks. The problem is you don't know this until you're trying to open the safe and the combination isn't working. Since most people screw up once in a while when entering the combination into a mechanical lock you may not figure this out for a bit. Finally any good safe cracker with knowledge and a method to enhance his hearing can get the safe open. Finally mechanical locks take the longest to get open.

Electronic locks are susceptible to EMP. This can be an issue if there is a transformer near your house and it explodes (very unlikely to cause any harm honestly) or there is a nuclear war with the Russians. If the later happens I don't think you'll be needing your guns since you'll most likely be vaporized as well as your safe. Electronics can also be bypassed with some of the oddest methods. Delivering just the right amount of voltage to the right part can make it open. Sometimes exposing the electronics to extreme cold can have the same response. And of course the batteries can die leaving you with a sealed safe until you replace the battery. On the upside they are faster to access than mechanical locks and the combinations can generally be changed very easily.

Finally you have the biometric locks. These usually read finger prints and open the safe for a print that matches close enough to the points they have in memory. Note almost all fingerprint locks work by reading several points off of your finger print, not the actual finger print. This means they don't need an exact match to open, just something that matches those specific points. Fingerprint locks are usually easy to bypass via stupidly simple methods. Something as easy as xeroxing the authorized person(s) fingerprint(s) and putting the paper against the reader can accomplish it. If the reader is sophisticated enough to check for moisture licking the paper will generally work. Finally if it checks for body temperature you just put your finger behind the piece of paper. The biggest problem is if you damage the authorized fingers your safe isn't going to be accessible (without the above mentioned options of course). It's dangerous to tie access to your guns to specific parts of your body because your body can be damaged.

Personally I'd say mechanical and electronic locks are both fine options. Do not go with biometric locks. Remember all locks can be bypassed they are only meant to slow down an unauthorized user.

I also want to bring up the whole EMP subject that is going down here. As with any system you have to balance out several factors. To me there is one reason I'd need to get into my safe in a hurry, I need a rifle and I need it now (as my carry gun never enters the safe). This generally means I'll be in a fear for my life situation in which case all fine motor skills have gone out the door. In such a case you may not have the metal aptitude and physical ability to open that safe. An electronic lock would be easier.

But if your in a situation where the Reds detonated a nuclear warhead specifically designed to emit as strong of an EMP as possible while damaged as little as possible (the Russians designed a nuke for these exact properties) and you survive you may need that rifle now. I mean logically after detonation there will be an invasion. In this case an electronic lock may be toast and you may not have the time to open the safe through other means.

Ask yourself this what is more likely? A self defense situation in the home where you may need quick access to a weapon in the safe or a nuclear war with the Reds? Now ask yourself in which case are you most likely going to need a weapon (remember dead people don't need weapons)? Security is all about risk assessment and threat profile. Figure these out before you spend much time worrying about them.

[Andrew Rothman]

I'm thinking that a gun bracket which simply requires adult strength to open might be a good compromise for that one go-to gun.

[EJSG19]

Ask yourself this what is more likely? A self defense situation in the home where you may need quick access to a weapon in the safe or a nuclear war with the Reds? Now ask yourself in which case are you most likely going to need a weapon (remember dead people don't need weapons)? Security is all about risk assessment and threat profile. Figure these out before you spend much time worrying about them.

There is the key for anyone of a "practical" mindset I think. Beyond that, anyone is entitled to be as secure as their money supply allows I guess.

IF we're worrying about EMP, you guys must know something I don't. If EMP is around, things are probably already worse than any gun in my safe will remedy.

In my opinion, gun safes are for keeping kids out. Keeping out burglars who aren't very determined. (Don't kid yourself too much, any burglar bent on cracking a safe either already has tools to do so, will find your tools if you have them, or else if he's empty handed, pretty much any half-assed safe will keep him out. Otherwise, there aren't a lot of safes around for less than $5k, that could keep anyone mechanically inclined out for very long.)

I say pick a lock type based on what works best for you in any given situation. Electronic is probably easiest, while they work. Mechanical is more durable, but harder to use quickly. Life is full of trade-offs.

[diamondsj]

Appreciate all the replies and discussion on this!!

[MostlyHarmless]

I'm thinking that a gun bracket which simply requires adult strength to open might be a good compromise for that one go-to gun.

In theory the action on any current production automatic rifle sold in the U.S. would meet this test. It's required by federal law.

Not sure this would pass muster with a pistol or revolver under MN law.

So that leaves shotguns. I'm a believer in pumps, for HD, which among other fine qualities are (assuming you don't leave a round in the chamber) difficult for someone to load and fire without doing so deliberately and with full understanding that it's a real gun.

Nonetheless, good idea in principle. Placement out of reach of children also helps.

[Ironbear]

Lots of people have trouble opening a good, group II combination lock under pressure (like fingerprint readers, there are speed and security tradeoffs -- if you have a bank grade one, the tolerance is 0.5 digits and you have to go slower than the commercial ones where it's 1.5 digits). You have to have light, and glasses if you need them, and fingers that aren't shaking.

+1 on that. My main safe is in an area with poor lighting. It can be difficult to see the numbers unless all the lights are on. I would hate to try and open it under pressure.

Mechanical locks are the most fool proof mechanisms.

They may be the most foolproof but it is good to recognize that they are not completely foolproof. My mechanical lock got replaced under warranty within a couple of months of purchase. It took me awhile to figure out that it was the lock and not just my technique with a new lock.

[R.E.T.]

I have a small biometric safe. Great in theory, but not in practice. Sometimes takes ten or twelve tries to open.

...if your fingers are clean it should work the first time.....where have your fingers been......

Funny hammar. I thought i'd check in again as this has become more involved. The problem with the safe that i have is that it just has a flat sensor and no hood. Therefor the finger can be a little higher or lower, a little left or a little to the right or at an angle and that is enough to throw it off.

[FJ540]

So what's a good quick access way to "MN Law proof" my HD handgun?

Thus far, I've kept it on the shelf out of reach, and instructed kiddo that he's not to touch it without me present, and he doesn't know it's up there. There's a snap cap in the chamber, and a mag in the gun. Kiddo isn't strong enough to rack it(yet).

I had come up with the front inside wall mounting idea a few weeks back, but I don't think "hiding" would hold up were something to happen and the location was discovered when he's older.

Are those finger keyed lock cabinets any good? The ones where you punch in a code with your fingertips and then the door will open.

[1911fan]

Its easier to gun proof the kid than it is to kid proof the gun.


take away the mystery and it seems that kids tend to leave it alone. that said, there are simple ways to make it so that kids fingers are not able to activate the latches. we all see the kid proof latches on cabinets and the like, if this is applied to something located in such a way that kids do not have the leverage or the reach to activate them, they can be quite safe.


I can show you some ways using two actions at once needed to open a latch that can be very kid proof, but easy and fast for an adult. http://www.southco.com/product/default.aspx?hid=7337

some of these require a pull and twist at the same time, if done while requiring a secondary action, most kids do not have the ability to do this until they are of the age to be trusted around guns.

[FJ540]

I've already got him exercising trigger finger discipline with his nerf guns and such (finger off the trigger until ready to fire). He's seen my other guns and has been instructed that they're off limits for now. He's a very legalistic little guy and often rats himself out when he's been "naughty" - he wouldn't think of handling a firearm unsupervised. I trust him with that right now.

I've been looking at the smaller framed .22's to actually get him shooting live fire, but haven't found one that felt right. I've also been looking at the airsoft stuff so I can get him working on his aim indoors. He likes guns, but he's not comfortable around real ones just yet. Part of that is fear of screwing up since he knows they're very dangerous, part of it is intimidation from lack of experience. He's just starting to get mature enough to understand the situational awareness needed to safely shoot (backdrop of target, etc), so it'll likely be this summer when I get him on the range.

My main issue here is protecting myself (legally) from his friends. We don't leave them unsupervised, but as they get older it becomes less necessary and curiosity is dangerous. Short of having all youngins pass firearms safety instruction prior to entering the house - I'd like to make it a little less accessible, but not so much so as to leave me without my gun in the event it's needed.

I've thought about a multiple motion latch, or even an internal latch that you need a strong magnet placed in a certain spot to release, and then not have the magnet on the enclosure for storage. Without knowing how it worked, no kid is going to go sweeping it with rare earth magnets hoping for a side to open and a gun to fall out. However, does that satisfy the law? - that's the question.

[monschman]

to answer the original post only, yes it is possible to swap and electronic lock for a dial or a mechanical lock in any safe with a good competent locksmith. It can get difficult and the price, which will be high, will be reflected accordingly.

if you get the opportunity, check out diebold, they will be able to do what you want but expect it to cost round the $500 mark. They have a location here in the cities and i can vouch for the fact that their work is excellent