Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

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Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby justaguy on Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:56 am

Now I'm sure this coming from me will draw the attention of my fans and it will be pointed out yet again I'm an *******, but did she really do everything in her power? There was another article that is linked to this one where she believed that her husband was going to killer, and she told other people this. Who knows maybe she had a gun, but it doesn't sound like it. And the advocate groups that give advice to these women would save a lot more people if they would tell them to get training and a gun. I think we need more guns not more laws. Not to mention it sounds like this guy should have had his ass kicked years ago. Ass kickings do motivate people to do the right thing, and to leave people alone. I'm surprised the media hasn't mentioned that the husband shouldn't have owned a gun, but it will come I'm sure.

http://www.startribune.com/local/north/ ... :_Yyc:aUUX

Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

A St. Paul police program will prioritize offenders by how dangerous they are.

By ABBY SIMONS, Star Tribune
Last update: October 4, 2009 - 7:13 AM

Pam Taschuk might be alive today if a novel program to stop violent domestic abusers, now in development in St. Paul, was already in place statewide.

The program, called the Blueprint, will be implemented by St. Paul police next year and is likely to be recommended for statewide use thereafter. A key component is police assessment of potential lethality of offenders, Cmdr. Steven Frazer, head of the Family and Sexual Violence Unit at the St. Paul Police Department, said Saturday.

The Blueprint is "cutting-edge and the first of its kind nationwide," Frazer said, adding that next year, the U.S. Department of Justice will begin using it as a nationwide model.

If the program had been applied to Taschuk's estranged husband, Allen, he might still be behind bars, unable to pay a higher bail set after authorities determined just how potentially dangerous he was to his wife of 22 years, whom he beat, imprisoned and threatened to kill on several occasions.

Instead, Pam Taschuk, 48, a longtime juvenile probation officer and social worker, was fatally shot Thursday night in their Lino Lakes home. Authorities say she had done everything right, seizing almost every resource available to battered women, but still wound up dead at the hands of her 51-year-old husband just a month after he posted $5,000 bail for his release from jail.

Frazer stopped short of saying whether the St. Paul plan could have saved Pam Taschuk's life, but said that if it were implemented, an abuser like Allen Taschuk would not be easily released from jail on bail based on his history as a convicted abuser.

"There was an awful lot of foreshadowing in this case," Frazer said. "Now, how does everyone else put that foreshadowing, as tragic as it is, to good use and good meaning to avert these tragedies? By all accounts, [Pam Taschuk] had the tools, and the knowledge, and the understanding, and still, here we are, writing a story that ends awful."
Since 2000, more than 200 Minnesota women have died as the result of domestic violence. And Taschuk's death came on the heels of another high-profile slaying, the Labor Day killing of North St. Paul police officer Richard Crittenden by a man who'd twice violated his protection order.

The Blueprint was crafted by police and Praxis International, a nonprofit group that works against domestic violence. Its assessment of offenders' potential lethality through questions asked by police at the scene -- such as whether a suspect has threatened to kill the victim or himself -- responds to at least some of the needs cited by advocates for battered women.

Connie Moore, executive director of Alexandra House, the Blaine battered-women's shelter where Pam Taschuk had sought support, said the Blueprint could be one of several ways to end the often fatal attacks on women who try to escape abusive relationships.

"That's a really important piece. If you can assess a perpetrator, and if this person is more likely to kill somebody, what can we put in place to prevent that?" she said.

Moore also would like to see a domestic-abuse registry through which abusers are monitored similar to the way sex offenders are monitored in most states. It's a somewhat simple solution, she said, and one that could garner attention if domestic abuse were taken more seriously.

"We can try and do everything possible, change things and do the best job we can, and sometimes somebody's going to do what he did. It's just gonna happen," said Moore. "But still, what can we do differently?"

Major attitude shift sought

Rebecca McLane, the program manager for the St. Paul Domestic Abuse Intervention Project, said addressing important issues that could save women's lives requires a shift in society's attitudes. Part of that, she said, would involve prioritizing.

"If we could have anything in the world that we wanted, it would be more shelters, more advocates, more cops on the streets, and more close monitoring of these dangerous offenders," said McLane, who added that the metro's dozen battered-women's shelters are nearly always full.

Wiggle room in laws

"I can't name a particular law that should be made, but there's a lot of wiggle room with our existing laws that could be tightened."
That's exactly the point of the Blueprint, Frazer said.

Though bail is typically set based on whether the defendant is a flight risk, it should be viewed differently when it comes to domestic abusers, many of whom have homes and jobs and can be relied upon to return to court. But they can't be relied upon not to harm their victims again.

"In the really lethal cases, our arrest or prosecution of them is not a deterrent to stopping their stalking or battery. It does deter them when they're locked up," Frazer said. "We're not making an argument on whether he's coming back to court next week. We're making an argument on whether he's a threat to the people he's been in contact with that warrants some other level of review."

According to most recent statistics, Frazer said, 54 percent of women killed in domestic situations had told police they believed they were going to be killed, essentially providing a preview of 54 percent of homicide suspects, Frazer said, and proving that fighting domestic violence is essentially saving lives.

"These are cases where people are dying every day," Frazer said. "That's something, in this age, where there's no excuse for not making whatever conscious efforts we can to make it better."

Abby Simons • 612-673-4921

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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby nyffman on Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:06 am

And the advocate groups that give advice to these women would save a lot more people if they would tell them to get training and a gun.

Agreed. But it's still up to the individual. I'm thinking here of the friend of ttousi who got beaten near lake Phalen. She took steps to control her own destiny when she, with the help of good friends got training and a gun. Also, don't forget that some people are against this sort of thing regardless of the circumstances. The only laws/policies required are those allowing people to do what they feel they need to do, not requiring anything.
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby farmerj on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:01 am

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11.........................


Sounds like another bureaucratic system that is coming on the heels of another high profile situation......

And what about addressing the issues of the current OFP system that is not adhered to or abused by "victims" and judicial officials....

People will accept this and say it is good because of the publicity it receives....


Yeah I know it's a link to the "daycare" as some call it.....

But the information is important to consider...
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby ttousi on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:09 am

According to many you've got it backwards farmerj.........this is the daycare ....that's the "other forum" ;)
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby justaguy on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:20 am

nyffman wrote:
And the advocate groups that give advice to these women would save a lot more people if they would tell them to get training and a gun.

Agreed. But it's still up to the individual. I'm thinking here of the friend of ttousi who got beaten near lake Phalen. She took steps to control her own destiny when she, with the help of good friends got training and a gun. Also, don't forget that some people are against this sort of thing regardless of the circumstances. The only laws/policies required are those allowing people to do what they feel they need to do, not requiring anything.

I understand it is their choice and am fine with that. I'm justa saying that all these groups that advise these women and help them through the system should also tell the women that paper has its limitations, and a lot of them. If they really cared they should do anything and everything to help these people. That might require thinking outside of the box, and if there is a better answer than protecting yourself with all means possible I'm for it. Domestic violence has already created a lot of red tape, and can be used against people with only he said, she said.
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby Pat on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:25 am

I don't think there is an easy answer here. Making it even more illegal to murder someone isn't going to do a damned thing.

Awareness and and a solid personal protection plan is all that could have saved this poor woman.
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby farmerj on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:27 am

Domestic violence has created a system fraught with abuse and mis-application.

That is also coming from those WITHIN MN Human Service.

I realize that horror stories can be found to support MORE services. But the fact this system IS abused, and NOT being addressed needs to come out.

And even here, it's NOT talked about. Just that the "victims" need to do more.....

The fact that lawyers are willing to state this and acknowledge it should scream "WTF" but it seems that even falls on deaf ears.


joelr wrote:I'm reminded of a lawyer friend who mentioned, once upon a time, he'd rather defend an accused serial killer than a divorced husband in a child custody case. "The murderer's got rights," he explained.


Someone who got the system to believe the father was the threat and got an OFP AGAINST him while he fought to regain contact and protection for his kids....
http://www.namiscc.org/Experiences/2004 ... ildren.htm
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby westberg on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:39 am

There is no argument that some people need protection, but with more laws there seem to be more abuse of the system.
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby justaguy on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:45 am

farmerj wrote:And even here, it's NOT talked about. Just that the "victims" need to do more.....

Didn't we already have this discussion?
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby farmerj on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:51 am

justaguy wrote:
farmerj wrote:And even here, it's NOT talked about. Just that the "victims" need to do more.....

Didn't we already have this discussion?


Then what have YOU done to speak up about the abuse in the system?
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby justaguy on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:58 am

farmerj wrote:
justaguy wrote:
farmerj wrote:And even here, it's NOT talked about. Just that the "victims" need to do more.....

Didn't we already have this discussion?


Then what have YOU done to speak up about the abuse in the system?

I bitch and moan on the interweb. WHAT ABOUT YOU?
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby mmcnx2 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:16 am

Possibly, but given the history it might also be possisble she could have also taken more action to keep the guy away from her earlier.

Not saying this is her fault, but it seems that someoen could have expected this was a possible outcome.
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby Dick Unger on Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:43 am

The peoblem is that she continued to live with him. This probably means that both of them were obsessesed, or sort of addicted to the relationship. Police were involved in the past, they would have advised her that she needed counseling as well as an Order for Protection. Any counselor would have advised he to break it off with him, instead of feeding the obsession. It's safe to say they tried, but it didn't work.

She of course has the right to not follow this advice to it's conclusion. There is no way to force anyone to follow unrequested advice. It's like any addiction, unless the person can be persuaded to participate in a recovery process they'll eventually be destroyed.

Cops can't come by a week later after the couple has reconciled and tell her to throw him out; there's not much they can do except wait for next time and take some more pictures.

It'll take education. Twenty five years ago the term "battered woman" was new. Many of us had a first reaction of "WTF are the touchy feely types gonna make us do now"? Now we all recognise the problem with other people. But when it's "us" as either an abuser or a victim, it's very difficult to overcome the internal denial.

We've been working on alcoholism as a society for quite a while, and things are better. The abuse problem will probably be similar.
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby MostlyHarmless on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:14 pm

Dick Unger wrote:The peoblem is that she continued to live with him.


Exactly.

And the other problem is that constitutionally we cannot keep people in jail for the crime they might possibly commit tomorrow, and a good thing it is. Some women remain in abusive relationships due to wishful thinking, a perceived lack of better alternatives, or an inability to make a concrete decision and stick with it. It happens every day and the results are all too often tragic.

Self defense training should be a second step after physically leaving the household.
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Re: Could tougher laws have saved Pam Taschuk?

Postby goalie on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:04 pm

A woman that won't stay away from a man isn't going to shoot that same man.

It sucks, but, then again, so does a lot of life.

Anyhow, guns are not the answer when the mindset is in question......
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