Appleseed for beginners.............

[DeanC]

No one at the one's I attended were against P2C they just ask that you don't while on the line.

Why? And how do you swing the logistics of that - not carry at all, or disarm somewhere? Sounds goofy.

Because you are moving from standing to sitting/kneeling and prone constantly. A sidearm just gets in the way and may point directions you didn't anticipate.

Leave it in the car.

[DeanC]

So it sounds like because of the magazine change portion of the drill, tube fed .22s like the Marlin Model 60 cannot be used.

It can be used. You just load 10 and don't worry about the mag change.

[DeanC]

(Have an old bolt-action mag-fed Marlin 25N with 2 7-round magazines, nothing else right now for rifles)

This can work. There are 10 rd mags available for that gun.

The bolt is tough, though, because you pull the sights off the target while working the bolt and have to reacquire. If you have a bolt that is buttery smooth I bet you could make rifleman.

After I make rifleman with a semi-auto, I am going to try and make it with a bolt or lever gun.

[1911fan]

(Have an old bolt-action mag-fed Marlin 25N with 2 7-round magazines, nothing else right now for rifles)

This can work. There are 10 rd mags available for that gun.

The bolt is tough, though, because you pull the sights off the target while working the bolt and have to reacquire. If you have a bolt that is buttery smooth I bet you could make rifleman.

After I make rifleman with a semi-auto, I am going to try and make it with a bolt or lever gun.

THis is a problem I have with the concept.

ANY battle rifle will pull your sights off target with recoil, If you practice all the time with a rifle that does not do this, what happens when you have to do it again?

I was reading the thought process's behind this once and I was thinking a bolt would make better sense as would one shot per target image, but thats just me.

[Q_Continuum]

(Have an old bolt-action mag-fed Marlin 25N with 2 7-round magazines, nothing else right now for rifles)

This can work. There are 10 rd mags available for that gun.

The bolt is tough, though, because you pull the sights off the target while working the bolt and have to reacquire. If you have a bolt that is buttery smooth I bet you could make rifleman.

After I make rifleman with a semi-auto, I am going to try and make it with a bolt or lever gun.

THis is a problem I have with the concept.

ANY battle rifle will pull your sights off target with recoil, If you practice all the time with a rifle that does not do this, what happens when you have to do it again?

I was reading the thought process's behind this once and I was thinking a bolt would make better sense as would one shot per target image, but thats just me.

I think the theory of thought is to get the basics down, and on a .22 you can do so cheaply, then go shoot with the 'big boys' and adapt, but not at the cost of 500+ rounds.

[1911fan]

I have no trouble with using a .22 to learn, but learning to shoot the same target without the action of realligning the sights each time, and just tapping the trigger each time is somehow off putting to me.

Instead of one target, ten shots, I would prefer one shot each at ten targets, as in real life you would not be shooting the same target over and over in the realm of which the appleseed would be in developing a real rifleman. I don't think HammAR had to shoot the same target ten times in some of his shooting....

[farmerj]

ANY battle rifle will pull your sights off target with recoil, If you practice all the time with a rifle that does not do this, what happens when you have to do it again?

Locking in with a sling and NPA address this. Even with an M1 Garand or a M14, you can return to target keeping a good cheek weld, as soon as the rifle comes out of recoil.

There are guys that do this that have a 6" or less group at 200 yds STANDING to prone that can do this all day long. There are some I have seen do this even with a Win 70 action space gun.

If you ever get a chance, get to the Gopher Rifle and revolver club and watch one of the OTC or CMP rifle matches. It's pure art. It's located north of the cities in Harris MN just off I-35.

Every May, there is a service Rifle Clinic. It's MUCH the same thing as an Appleseed shoot and at considerable the savings in price. And you WILL shoot at range, from 200 yards out to 600 yards. Follow the description for High power. For those that are up to a road trip, ND has a similar event every year too. These are pretty much ruled by the CMP class of AR-15. Most of these are built off the A2 upper. Not because it couldn't benefit from the removable carry handle, but because you just DON'T get the elevation adjustment out of the A3 rear sight block.

Game on....It's a pretty short list of gear that's needed.

Not to take away from Appleseed, but it really IS a repeat of some incredible experience that has been around for YEARS in High power and service rifle matches. It's just formatted to work around .22's and reduced ranges. If shooting the Appleseed is fun for you. Get into the high power stuff. It's a rush. 1000 yds really does become short.

[TC95GT]

I think the theory of thought is to get the basics down, and on a .22 you can do so cheaply, then go shoot with the 'big boys' and adapt, but not at the cost of 500+ rounds.

That is exactly correct.

Don't forget if you want to bring an AR, Garand or whatever they have no problem with it. Most people shoot .22's though. It's just a lot cheaper when your looking at 500-700 rounds and you will go through 500-700 rounds if you shoot both days and participate.

[DeanC]

I have no trouble with using a .22 to learn, but learning to shoot the same target without the action of realligning the sights each time, and just tapping the trigger each time is somehow off putting to me.

Even with a .22 your sights come off the target, but you don't have to reposition your hands and fingers, and like farmerj said, your cheek weld. With any semi-auto, you come back to your NPOA much more readily.

At the furthest distance (smallest target) your sight blade is barely wider than the target. Your breathing pulls the sights off the target.

If you are in the proper prone position, you have to disrupt your NPOA to work a bolt or lever because you are resting on your elbows and it just plain takes more time to get back into your NPOA and on target.

If you are using a heavy barrel 22 rifle that doesn't come off the target, you are gaming the system.

[hammAR]

From this conversation it appears that for the new or relatively inexperienced shooter that indeed the Appleseed shoot:

a) seems to be biased toward auto-loaders with the time restrictions, as the new/inexperienced shooter wanting to improve their overall shooting skills will be handicapped using anything but an auto-loader, mot because of the technology or choice of weapon systems, but purely due to time restrictions, and....

b) as they are attempting to "recreate" the rifleman or marksmanship aspect of our heritage, I would hate to see a person using a period weapon to attempt to qualify in the Appleseed.......

c) finally, yes the natural progression for self improvement as a rifleman/marksman would be to advance to the CMP type of shooting for open sights or other various competitions for other sights/optics and challenges.....

but again I view the Appleseed as a sampling and entry level point of entry into the world of long gun shooting........

[DeanC]

as they are attempting to "recreate" the rifleman or marksmanship aspect of our heritage, I would hate to see a person using a period weapon to attempt to qualify in the Appleseed.......

The plain fact is, even with all the "right" gear, I'd guess less than 20% qualify in any given weekend. You shoot the qual target many, many times throughout the weekend. And EVERYBODY sees their scores improve. The idea is that you will be moving towards becoming a modern rifleman. Most people don't make it the first time through.

And there is more to it than just the shooting. They really do a great job of teaching and illustrating the historical reasons why we are who we are. They do such a good job of personalizing the events of April 19, 1775 that it really gets your blood up.

As to the use of a modern semi-auto; Jeff Cooper was not a big fan of the AR-15 system, calling it a "poodle-shooter", "a step backward" and "...the M16 is to a rifle as a banjo is to a guitar".

But he did say

...it would seem that the whole people should be well qualified in the use of the national personal arm, which at this point is the M16. Thus if we are to follow that line of thought, everybody should be qualified on the M16, which is in the eyes of some people a machinegun. What a shocking thought!

and

Considering the fact that, according to our Founding Fathers, all able bodied adult males are members of the militia, all able bodied adult males should be technically qualified with the personal arms selected by our Department of Defense. By this I mean that everyone who is physically capable of it should be checked out on the M16 as to its mechanism, operation, and use. I am no admirer of the M16, but there it is and we are stuck with it. The fact that it has the fully automatic option might serve to terrify those people who do not understand weaponry, but if that is the US rifle, the US citizen should certainly know how to operate it.

Also, in my view, everyone should know how to operate the slovenly AK47, not because it is good, but because there are so many examples floating around the world. If, God forbid!, the sewage actually does hit the impeller, you better know how to work an AK47, because that may be all you can get hold of. When a citizen applies for a concealed carry permit, these things might well be considered.

[DeanC]

And let's not get too hung up the technicalities of the shooting. The shooting is part of it, but it's really about Liberty. This is sort of the rifleman's manifesto: Part One: Starting Out

[1911fan]

Also pleas do not take my veiw points as disparagment of shooting skills training.

I once was leaning toward high power shooting as I did NRA small bore in high school but prairie dogging drew me away.

[DeanC]

This could lead someone to high power or F-class, but that is not the primary intent.

And I didn't think you were disparaging, you were just asking questions and criticizing in the best sense of criticism.

[DeanC]

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