What cartridge is dead?

[DeanC]

Rifle cartridges in the short and super short category. They look cool but no one is chambering for them. Remington is down to one loading for both of the RSAUM's.

I guess there was some lawsuit settlement over the Winchester Shorts that ended in a big licensing fee on new guns so they have dropped significantly in popularity. The Rems started at the same time but never caught on. I guess an Ultra Magnum in a lightweight short-action might be too much. Ruger tried to restart the short mag craze with their RCM's but it has not caught.

[Keith]

45 GAP? I have always asked why too. (I know it was to fit a 45 caliber in a 9 mm length round.)

That was some of the hype, .45 acp performance in a 9mm size grip or frame. From what I have read, that is true with the 185 grain load, a toss up with the 200 grain, but the .45 GAP cannot match the performance a .45 acp with a 230 grain bullet, the GAP case is too small to hold the volume of powder needed.

I used to ask "why" too. Will it ever take off? No. But for me it fills a nice little niche and the Glock 38 is one my favorite carry guns.

But now you have me wondering about the velocity. I could have swore the 230 grain GAP loads were real close to the ACP. I'll have to dig out the chrono and some ammo for a little test.

[MrVvrroomm]

But now you have me wondering about the velocity. I could have swore the 230 grain GAP loads were real close to the ACP.

The GAP round was originally designed for 185-200 grain projectiles. It was later discovered that 230 gr would work very well.

Here's some info I took right from Federal's website: Both of the loads listed are 230 gr JHP Hydra-Shok. Both are personal defense rounds, neither are listed as +P

Muzzle Velocity Energy in Foot Pounds
GAP 880 395
ACP 900 414

[Keith]

But now you have me wondering about the velocity. I could have swore the 230 grain GAP loads were real close to the ACP.

The GAP round was originally designed for 185-200 grain projectiles. It was later discovered that 230 gr would work very well.

Here's some info I took right from Federal's website: Both of the loads listed are 230 gr JHP Hydra-Shok. Both are personal defense rounds, neither are listed as +P

Muzzle Velocity Energy in Foot Pounds
GAP 880 395
ACP 900 414

That's what I recalled, too. Still, seems like a test is in order.

[Stradawhovious]

That's what I recalled, too. Still, seems like a test is in order.

Yep. And you have a firearm that can fire both, so you can get solid data without the difference in firearm needing to be taken into account.

Although that firearm is a revolver (The Smithy 625), which in and of itself might bring it's own set of variables to the table.........

[cobb]

But now you have me wondering about the velocity. I could have swore the 230 grain GAP loads were real close to the ACP.

The GAP round was originally designed for 185-200 grain projectiles. It was later discovered that 230 gr would work very well.

Here's some info I took right from Federal's website: Both of the loads listed are 230 gr JHP Hydra-Shok. Both are personal defense rounds, neither are listed as +P

Muzzle Velocity Energy in Foot Pounds
GAP 880 395
ACP 900 414

I seem remember earlier numbers that didn't have them that close with a 230 grain bullet.

Guess we will just have to wait for the next Glock kaboom.

[Keith]

That's what I recalled, too. Still, seems like a test is in order.

Yep. And you have a firearm that can fire both, so you can get solid data without the difference in firearm needing to be taken into account.

Although that firearm is a revolver (The Smithy 625), which in and of itself might bring it's own set of variables to the table.........

I never did try Gap out of the wheelie. I have friends that were cutting down .45 acp brass before GAP brass was readily available to run in their 625's. They said the shorter round was a little easier for the reload. Most figured out it wasn't worth it and some went on to just using gap brass even though they had to take out a home improvement loan out to pay for the special moonclips for the perfect fit. Of course there is the fact that Cliff blew one up one his 625's running gap brass, 185 grain bullets, and (apparently) too much Clays powder.

[MrVvrroomm]

... and (apparently) too much Clays powder.

LOL Anything more than just enough Clays is too much.

[DanM]

Some handgun cartridges that I thought had promise, but didn't seem to pan out;

9mm Federal - rimmed 9mm Luger. Market for 9mm revolvers never materialized, until recently for 9mm Luger cartridges.
.357 Remington Maximum - a magnum magnum. Maybe too much of a good thing?
.41 Action Express - .41 Magnum balistics with a 9mm cartridge rim. Never caught on. Cult favorite?
.44 Auto Mag - used in the Auto Mag pistol. .44 Magnum punch in a semi-auto, if the gun could have stood the abuse.

And an oldie;
.38 Automatic - the progenitor of the .38 Super (Auto). Anyone still shooting these?

Dan

[Spartan117]

I really hope .45 GAP will die eventually, but I think it's going to limp on for a while. It's a pointless cartridge. It's marketing based on a number people like to hear, not actual innovation.

[Pat]

.32 S&W and the .30 Luger. Believe, it or not, I had guns chambered in these calibers, but have not seen ammo on the shelves at the likes of Cabela's for years now. I used to find it in just about every hardware store up north, but certainly not for a great while.

[Keith]

Test results for anyone interested.
I only did 3 shots for each string as I was trying to beat the rain. (didn't work)
I just used what I had for factory ammo.
Didn't think to grab a 1911.

Smith and Wesson 625
5" revolver barrel

Federal 230 hydra-shok .45 ACP
886
880
881
Avg=882

Federal 230 hydra-shok .45 GAP
852
847
871
Avg=856





Glock 37
4.5 barrel .45 GAP

WWB 230 GAP FMJ
820
825
804
AVG=816

Federal 230 hydra-shok .45 GAP
846
854
831
Avg=843



Glock 21
.45 ACP
4.5 barrel

Federal 230 .45 ACP AE FMJ
864
854
826
Avg=848

Federal 230 hydra-shok .45 ACP
864
880
870
Avg=871






Another dead cartridge I still shoot is the .38 Short Colt.
It's basically a rimmed 9mm and works great in the Smith 627.

[cobb]

Another dead cartridge I still shoot is the .38 Short Colt.
It's basically a rimmed 9mm and works great in the Smith 627.

But in a different application than the cartridge was designed for.

[MrVvrroomm]

Great info Keith, thanks!

[bandit357]

How about the 218 Bee Winchester? I wasn't even aware it existed until I was looking for a good varment rifle for grandpa. It sounds like it was only chambered for the lever action until the early 50's when they made the Winchester model 43 bolt action and the Sako L-46. I am wondering how much of a difference there is between the 218 Bee and 222 Remington cartridge and why it became more or less obsolete. Sounded like it was a good varment round. Does any one own that rifle?