-POLL ADDED- What gun would you give the police?

[chunkstyle]

I remember how strenuously many members of MPD objected to being uniformly required to get M9's. The change of policy that followed allowed most any full size sidearm, so long as it was 9, 40, or 45, with old 357s grandfathered in.

[plblark]

Come to think of it, it's like buying a gun for someone else, wife, kid, etc...

Let them pick what works for them

Of course, the spare parts / armorer / qualifications get a bit more logistically challenging I'd imagine...

[bstrawse]

When I worked in law enforcement in Indiana (mid-90s) - our department sidearm was the Glock Model 21 (.45). As I quickly found out, this pistol was way too large for my smallish-hands. I carried the Glock 17 with approval from the Sheriff.

We did allow deputies to select and carry any weapon in 9mm, .40, .45, .357 if I remember correctly - as long as the firearm was inspected by the armorer and certified for use... couple older deputies even carried revolvers.

You did have to qualify annually with your duty weapon and any other weapon you wanted to carry on-duty.

We also had AR-15s and Remington 870s -- there were some other rifles carried from time to time too

If I was picking, I think I'd go w/ HK or Glock. I'd likely carry something else.
b

[RobD]

Eric, What did your department issue?

[1911fan]

If you base the concept on ammo compatability, then saying you can use anything in .40 would probably work, but then again, thats such a infinitesimally small probability that its safe to ignore it.

Any gun over a certain caliber, over a certain Ft lbs or power rating.

[Z201]

I don’t know when MPD made the policy addendum allowing individual officers to carry whatever weapon they wanted. When I worked there officers could carry any weapon that they had been trained on by the department. For example, when I started we carried Beretta 92’s and the class several after mine where trained on 96’s. This meant that I could carry either a 92 or a 96, but that class could only carry a Beretta 96. People with more seniority could carry anything that had been authorized during their tenure and it became a status symbol to have an old .357 revolver with a 6” barrel 

I would agree with USER842 in the fact that the department should be standardized in the make and caliber of their weapons. This makes logistical sense as far as armoring, ammunition ordering/inventorying and equipment such as holsters and magazine-pouches, etc. In an active shooter response scenario, interchangeability may become crucial to the safety of officers.

I would agree that for overall reliability and functionality, the M&P is a good fit for most departments. However, if budget is no concern…it is hard to overlook the overall sex appeal of the LAPD SWAT Kimber Tactical II. In most officer involved shootings, there are less than ten rounds exchanged. It is hard to beat the stopping power of a .45 I would also advocate the department issuing of an Ultra Carry for plain clothes details.
When you start this department USER842, hold that Capt. of Criminal Investigations spot open for me 

[EJSG19]

If you base the concept on ammo compatability, then saying you can use anything in .40 would probably work, but then again, thats such a infinitesimally small probability that its safe to ignore it.

Any gun over a certain caliber, over a certain Ft lbs or power rating.

The last person I talked to who has to draw his weapon relatively often had this to say.

"Am I still breathing? Yes? Then don't ask me to share my ammo, because you aren't getting it. You can have it when I'm no longer in the fight, and by that I mean dead." For some folks in that line of work, ammo/firearm compatability isn't a big concern.

All bullets can fail, all guns can fail. I wouldn't have a problem with letting the individual leo choose what he carries. Maybe weed out the stupid (for an LEO) choices, like .22 LR and .500 S&W for example. Give the guy/lady a budget. $600 for a reasonable carry weapon would cut it I'd think. If someboday can't find a reliable gun for that much, they can pick up the difference for something more pricey?

i'd consider the XD's, M&P's and Glocks all fighting pistols, bred for that purpose. 1911's I think are awesome when they run, but to get a representative sample to run 99.9% reliably, they need some tweaking/reliability smithing. HK's and Sig's are pretty cool, but I don't personally like their design quite as much for a "gun for the masses" fighting gun. A person shouldn't be required to carry something that they aren't proficient with. Is that the gun's fault, or the cop's fault? Qualifying once/twice per year is not what I'd consider to be adequate training.

I'd be all for increasing the training requirements for the person, as long as we're looking so hard at the firearm that person carries. Not cop bashing, but I think its apparent that a large % of LEO's don't spend much time working on their defensive shooting skills. But maybe my experience with that isn't what someone elses has been.

[Thunderjohn]

I would choose the M&P as well, for all the reasons already stated. Uniformity is somewhat important.
It's just another tool they have to work with, a very important one, but just another one.
Most officers will never use it, but they need something that can fit most anyone. And the M&P is so darn sexy.

They don't get to pick their cars, uniforms, radios, etc., so the buying power in a std. weapon is a plus.

As of a couple months ago, MPD still had to carry a pistol that was DA w/ a decocker.

[hammAR]

....1911's I think are awesome when they run, but to get a representative sample to run 99.9% reliably, they need some tweaking/reliability smithing.

Pure unadulterated BS...........you loose VoR privileges for a long time..........

[EJSG19]

....1911's I think are awesome when they run, but to get a representative sample to run 99.9% reliably, they need some tweaking/reliability smithing.

Pure unadulterated BS...........you loose VoR privileges for a long time..........

Ok. Well, I've seen quite a few 1911's not run. I've seen models of almost every gun not run. If most people bought a basic GI/mil spec 1911, didn't do a darn thing to it, and ran nothing but factory ball ammo in it, we might have a different story. But that isn't what a lot of people do. 1911's coming off the lines don't seem like they have the QC that they did decades ago. I understand the love affair we all have with them. I like them too. Personally my confidence in one XD, M&P, Glock to the next is a lot higher than setting one 1911 down and picking up another and being fully confident it will work right. But thats all it is, personal opinion. Nobody died and made me the all knowing pistol expert.

Just telling it like I've seen it. YMMV. Everyone loves what they love and there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe I've seen a disproportionate amount of lemons in my time.

I lost the VoR title a long time ago, life continues for a while.

[thunderoussilence]

S&W M&P .45 Will fit any sized hand,ez to clean and solid feel.

[hammAR]

Ok. Well, I've seen quite a few 1911's not run. I've seen models of almost every gun not run.

Agreed. Lots of 1911's are overpriced, tweeked, over-marketed with multiple manufacturers putting out hybrids for fancy paper punching. While a Glock is a Glock is a Glock.......not apples to apples............but, you recovered nicely with:

If most people bought a basic GI/mil spec 1911, didn't do a darn thing to it, and ran nothing but factory ball ammo in it, we might have a different story.

Now, I will fully agree that we are approaching apples to apples............

Just telling it like I've seen it......I lost the VoR title a long time ago, life continues for a while.

Nothing wrong with opinions or discussions or agreeing to disagree, feel free to voice your opinion anytime.......

.....forgot about the laryngitis....

[Bessy]

However, if budget is no concern…it is hard to overlook the overall sex appeal of the LAPD SWAT Kimber Tactical II. In most officer involved shootings, there are less than ten rounds exchanged. It is hard to beat the stopping power of a .45 

I agree with your sentiment, but I think the 1911 is probably the worst choice for law enforcement, hear me out here.

This is assuming your getting a 1911 that runs 100% out of the box. I'm not trying to get into a 1911 brand fight here, or go into trigger pull weights length of pull etc etc. So let's just say 100% reliable duty 1911, and talk platform commonalities here.

1. A single action only gun with an external safety, is probably the MOST difficult sidearm type to train for in terms of manual of arms.
2. The .45acp round has worse penetration of soft tissue than the 40 cal does. At factory loads the .45 is more difficult to control.
3. 10 round magazines for the 1911 are too long to be effectively carried IMHO, so you are stuck with 8, at that point you mind as well be using one of those new 8 round tactical 357 revos, I keep reading about.


This is coming from the guy who loves 1911's.

[EJSG19]

No worries here. I think a carry gun needs to be protected from it's idiot owner a lot of times. 1911's are subject to a lot of people who can't wait to modify it, thats just the nature of the market place. Thats what keeps a lot of 1911 makers in business. If they were all the same, we'd only have a handful of clear leaders in 1911's.

Also, anyone carrying a modified gun for their self defense (trigger jobs, non-factory springs, or anything else which sends a soccer mom jury's neck hair on end) isn't doing their best to win a self defense court case. Night sights, grip reductions/extensions and "less scary" modifications I think are more easily spun to a jury as "no, this was not done to the gun because the owner just couldn't wait to pull the trigger on somebody" whereas the over used term "hair trigger" is a much harder thing to defend. I say this only from my own brand of common sense and anecdotal information.

apples to apples, you hit the concept right on. Give me a basic 1911 and a glock and an XD, and 200 rounds for each of them. I'll carry any one of them, so long as they work. In my experience, the probability of each one working right off the shelf is different. But its hard to define what a "1911" is these days. Colt? Kimber? SA? RIA? Remington? Magnum Research? Taurus?

Some people royally Eff them up. Others make nice examples. Some companies do both.

[Bessy]

? Magnum Research?

I hear it took nearly 100 years for the 1911 to reach a standard where magnum research would put their seal of approval on it....


*lights fuse.... RUNS LIKE HELL*