A reminder why I carry...

[RobD]

I was watching the latest on the AZ shooting, as they were talking about the 9 year old girl that was murdered, my 3 year old daughter (who's amazingly perceptive) asked why the bad man shot her.

I explained as best as I could, and she rushed over, and squeezed me tight, saying "I'm glad you protect me daddy". She then asked, "Why didn't her daddy protect her?"

[afossum]

While trying to wrap my head around all this, I have a question. Of course it would of been great if someone was carrying and able to take this guy out before doing what he did. But lets say someone else was also carrying and thought the individual that took out the bad guy was also one of the bad guys? This could really have kind of a domino effect. The the Cops show up and see multiple people with hand guns a blazing, are they going to ask questions first. Or begin firing at these individuals?
Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem with someone with the ability and skill to of taken this jerk out, doing so. Just see where things could really spiral out of control quickly.
Now if the Police or some other uniformed security person would of been there and able to return fire. This would of eliminated much if not all of the confusion.
Said day over all.

Al

[cmj685]

While trying to wrap my head around all this, I have a question. Of course it would of been great if someone was carrying and able to take this guy out before doing what he did. But lets say someone else was also carrying and thought the individual that took out the bad guy was also one of the bad guys? This could really have kind of a domino effect. The the Cops show up and see multiple people with hand guns a blazing, are they going to ask questions first. Or begin firing at these individuals?
Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem with someone with the ability and skill to of taken this jerk out, doing so. Just see where things could really spiral out of control quickly.
Now if the Police or some other uniformed security person would of been there and able to return fire. This would of eliminated much if not all of the confusion.
Said day over all.

Al

This is always the conundrum faced by any of us who decide to intervene in any kind of public situation. It is a sobering idea, especially in a place like Arizona where there is no permit of any kind needed to carry a firearm, and many people do so routinely. Someone firing from the crowd at the bad guy could very well set off a firestorm of volleys from different directions, not to mention what happens if and when the cops arrive. Think hard before intervening with a firearm! How can you both protect yourself from being ambushed by someone else in the meantime who mistakes you for a bad guy, and how can you make it known as the firestorm is going on that you are a good guy? The longer you try to think how these things can happen, the more intractable it seems.

[monschman]

I didnt hear about the terrible situation in AZ till just an hour ago and finding out a child paid the ultimate price along with others others for this heinous crime did make me tear up, not a great way to wake up to a beautiful new day. As for your daughters remark RobD, kids are incredibly perceptive and usually not tainted by societys perceptions of "right and wrong" and are generally right on the mark for what is actually right and what isnt. I dont have any kids but her statement reinforces my belief that carrying a gun is the right thing to do to protect me and my families life and reminds me that making the ultimate decision may result in ultimate consequences one of them being that if I dont act then what I cherish most may no longer be there. My prayres go out to the families and friends of all that were left behind. May God give them strength in this time of incredible hardship and comfort them in their loss and pain.

[xd ED]

While trying to wrap my head around all this, I have a question. Of course it would of been great if someone was carrying and able to take this guy out before doing what he did. But lets say someone else was also carrying and thought the individual that took out the bad guy was also one of the bad guys? This could really have kind of a domino effect. The the Cops show up and see multiple people with hand guns a blazing, are they going to ask questions first. Or begin firing at these individuals?
Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem with someone with the ability and skill to of taken this jerk out, doing so. Just see where things could really spiral out of control quickly.
Now if the Police or some other uniformed security person would of been there and able to return fire. This would of eliminated much if not all of the confusion.
Said day over all.

Al

This is always the conundrum faced by any of us who decide to intervene in any kind of public situation. It is a sobering idea, especially in a place like Arizona where there is no permit of any kind needed to carry a firearm, and many people do so routinely. A return of fire from the crowd could very well set off a firestorm of volleys from different directions, not to mention what happens if and when the cops arrive. Think hard before intervening with a firearm! How can you both protect yourself from being ambushed by someone else in the meantime who mistakes you for a bad guy, and how can you make it known as the firestorm is going on that you are a good guy? The longer you try to think how these things can happen, the more intractable it seems.

Back it up one step and it gets to be more of a dilemma: What are the odds that you are, at that precise moment, so incredibly observant amidst all the confusion, that you've picked out the 'correct' bad guy to shoot at? What you see as the aggressor's action, might in fact be someone's reaction.

I suspect an ambush in a crowd like this might be a near hopeless situation.
My guess is the shooting is over by the time the police would arrive, but if not- do as they say.

Perhaps the best one could do would be to protect your loved ones- get them low, or better- barricaded under/ behind a table; and then be defensive- anyone coming at you with a gun is a reasoned to be an immediate threat, and hopefully that won't be a plain-clothes cop.

It brings to mind a couple of military maxims, which I suspect I've butchered:
Whatever you thought it(Viet Nam?) would be- it's different.
A plan lasts until the first shot is fired.

[cobb]

I explained as best as I could, and she rushed over, and squeezed me tight, saying "I'm glad you protect me daddy". She then asked, "Why didn't her daddy protect her?"

I am not going to get in the "what if" mode, for those that do you must think it through, then weight the possible consequences carefully. I carry to protect my own, if I die saving saving a family member, so be it. I would also run into a burning building or jump into a ranging river to save my family. Is it prudent, is there a good survival possibility, probably not. I just could not live with myself if I just stood by with my hands in my pocket and pray that someone would do something.

[lenny7]

Of course it would of been great if someone was carrying and able to take this guy out before doing what he did. But lets say someone else was also carrying and thought the individual that took out the bad guy was also one of the bad guys?

Definitely a risk. In that situation you have a split second to weigh the consequences of taking direction action against the bad guy, versus the the consequences of not doing so. Pray you get it right.

[xd ED]

I explained as best as I could, and she rushed over, and squeezed me tight, saying "I'm glad you protect me daddy". She then asked, "Why didn't her daddy protect her?"

I am not going to get in the "what if" mode, for those that do you must think it through, then weight the possible consequences carefully. I carry to protect my own, if I die saving saving a family member, so be it. I would also run into a burning building or jump into a ranging river to save my family. Is it prudent, is there a good survival possibility, probably not. I just could not live with myself if I just stood by with my hands in my pocket and pray that someone would do something.

I concur with the sentiments you express.
However, in the case of a water rescue, 'what-iffing' goes a long ways in ensuring both the survival of you and the victim; it's done in WSI/ life guard training. Likewise I suspect in fire rescue training.
I don't think anyone's strategy differs on the issue. It is more a discussion of possible scenarios and tactics.

[tman]

While trying to wrap my head around all this, I have a question. Of course it would of been great if someone was carrying and able to take this guy out before doing what he did. But lets say someone else was also carrying and thought the individual that took out the bad guy was also one of the bad guys? This could really have kind of a domino effect. The the Cops show up and see multiple people with hand guns a blazing, are they going to ask questions first. Or begin firing at these individuals?
Don't get me wrong, I would have no problem with someone with the ability and skill to of taken this jerk out, doing so. Just see where things could really spiral out of control quickly.
Now if the Police or some other uniformed security person would of been there and able to return fire. This would of eliminated much if not all of the confusion.
Said day over all.

Al

This is the perfect scenario. A public venue, in a state where NO permit is required, at an event with a pro gun legislator. The ONLY person who fired a gun was the badguy. Face it, if ever a by-stander was carrying and was going to take action it would've been yesterday.

The percentages of those who carry regularly is extremely low. This tragedy illustrates this.

[cmj685]

This is the perfect scenario. A public venue, in a state where NO permit is required, at an event with a pro gun legislator. The ONLY person who fired a gun was the badguy. Face it, if ever a by-stander was carrying and was going to take action it would've been yesterday.

The percentages of those who carry regularly is extremely low. This tragedy illustrates this.

I am still not sure if this is true. The first couple of news accounts I heard yesterday said that someone from the crowd returned fire, and that helped in stopping the situation, but I haven't heard any more about it since. I am also still waiting to hear what "automatic weapon" the shooter was using, per the news accounts yesterday.

[westhope]

The answer is "What can you live with later."

Did you standby, do nothing and later live with the outcome. Did you do everything that you could at the moment (later judged right or wrong by others) and later live with yourself and the consequences.

Family first, then myself, then others (if no risk to family and little to myself). That is what I have decided I can live with.

[chunkstyle]

There was no automatic weapon. The shooter had a Glock 19, with extended mag.

Sad that there was no one who would stop this available. Ironic that it happened in a constitutional-carry state.

The little girl killed was born on 9-11-2001. More irony.

[tman]

This is the perfect scenario. A public venue, in a state where NO permit is required, at an event with a pro gun legislator. The ONLY person who fired a gun was the badguy. Face it, if ever a by-stander was carrying and was going to take action it would've been yesterday.

The percentages of those who carry regularly is extremely low. This tragedy illustrates this.

I am still not sure if this is true. The first couple of news accounts I heard yesterday said that someone from the crowd returned fire, and that helped in stopping the situation, but I haven't heard any more about it since. I am also still waiting to hear what "automatic weapon" the shooter was using, per the news accounts yesterday.

Listening to an eyewitness account, I have to agree with you. Sounds like it was a very smal group - like 20, or so. Nineteen people shot.

[hammAR]

I find it rather interesting having this discussion. As a person that throughout my 40+ year career has carried a weapon, as have many of the "more seasoned" LEO's, it was mostly you carry your weapon for "the job", but when you came home it went on the dresser, at least for most, and you went about your life.

It has only really been in the last 10 years that personal protection has become a larger discussion arena and boiled over into the civilian world. This change of society and attitude has had a profound effect on all. As with this incident in AZ, in general 10+ years ago there would not have been a discussion of "would I intervene and shoot the perp" , and 5+ years ago most of the members of this board would not have thought of it either, but condition responses with "well someone should have shot the perp". It is an amazing change.

This change, while on one hand it is comforting, and yet wildly scary, is the realization from my perspective of all of the inexperienced and untrained folks running around with weapons, yet discussing life an death scenarios. While I understand the "need" to feel safe and to have the ability to defend one self and family, it still bothers me that so many can and are willing to sit back with coffee in hand, gun on hip, reinforced by the ability to think through scenarios, they type them into a computer. I do not want to ever be in a position where I need to defend myself or family and have some jack-ass, vigilante shoot me in the back because they "misinterpreted' the scenario. Ready, fire, aim rarely works out well, especially when you have micro-seconds to decide......even experienced and trained folks screw that up occasionally!

I am not taking a shot at anyone in particular, but I do find the change in attitude, caused by circumstances and changes in society, a little un-nerving.

/$.02 sermon over..........

[Srigs]

I have to say Rob that your daughter is very perceptive and asked a very good question.

hammAR brings up some very good points. The good thing about the change IMHO is people are starting to think about what if? In the end, two people without guns stopped him by tackling him. So, everyone should think about what they would do and I know the handful of options I would have done based on the situation at hand.

My job is to protect my family period. So Rob, can I ask how you responded?