Rep. Gabrielle Giffords shot in AZ

[RobD]

IIRC, it was mentioned on FOX News. I don't recall who mentioned it however. Apparently, this guy bought a handgun in November. I wish I had the source to back it up. Maybe someone else will chime in!

I heard five weeks ago, why did he pass a background check???????????????

Bought it Nov 30th. At sportsmans warehouse. He passed a background check because he's not been convicted of a felony (or any crime above a traffic violation), and has never been committed to a mental facility.


Background checks cover someone's BACKGROUND, not their intentions...

I assume even with no PTC states have background checks to purchase, at least I hope so!

[/quote]

It's federal law John.... FFL sales require a background check....

[Pinnacle]

He was able to buy a handgun in November because AZ does an instant background check at the time of purchase.
People at the community college had reported his behavior, but he was not on any watch list or warrants,
he had no gross-misdemeanors or felonies, so the check came back clean.
He went to walmart and bought 100 rounds of FMJ, to fill 3 magazines (31 or 33)

It is not about clearing the NICS check, not about buying a gun, ability to buy the gun, eligibility to own a gun, it is about people ignoring a pattern of behavior, reports of his behavior being dead ended with people thinking that it is not their problem, or responsibility, and a lack of awareness of the problem.

If you get booted out of school because you are scaring people, it is not enough to just toss him out of school. People need to know, people need to act and take these problems seriously. Would intervention when someone knew he was "off" have helped? Perhaps, it would have been better than any intervention that was tried with this character in the past.

Set the access to guns agenda asides and look more closely at the CORE ISSUE / mental health problems, awareness and intervention.

[John S.]

IIRC, it was mentioned on FOX News. I don't recall who mentioned it however. Apparently, this guy bought a handgun in November. I wish I had the source to back it up. Maybe someone else will chime in!

I heard five weeks ago, why did he pass a background check???????????????

Bought it Nov 30th. At sportsmans warehouse. He passed a background check because he's not been convicted of a felony (or any crime above a traffic violation), and has never been committed to a mental facility.


Background checks cover someone's BACKGROUND, not their intentions...

I assume even with no PTC states have background checks to purchase, at least I hope so!

It's federal law John.... FFL sales require a background check....[/quote]


As to what Pinnacle

I knew that.......just seein if anyone else did. Heard the FBI is getting a lot of flack over his buyin a gun too!


As to what Pinnacle said, I agree if people who noticed he was "off" would have reported that fact to someone who could do somethin about it, maybe even have him checked by a medical person, then THAT finding should go into a data base,
IF, lets say he was found as unbalanced, so if he did try to purchase a gun red flags would show up.

[Heffay]

As to what Pinnacle said, I agree if people who noticed he was "off" would have reported that fact to someone who could do somethin about it, maybe even have him checked by a medical person, then THAT finding should go into a data base,
IF, lets say he was found as unbalanced, so if he did try to purchase a gun red flags would show up.

See something, say something? Like Walmart is asking us to do, in conjunction with Homeland Security?

I'd hate to get listed in that database because someone thought I was a bit "off". I'm sure more than a couple of people on this forum find me strange enough to report to the "proper authorities."

[Ramoel]

If you have an Arizona Carry Permit you do not need a NICS check to purchase a gun. It's been that way for years. Also, they still issue permits if you want one. Gives ability to carry in places that sell alcohol and in other states that recognize AZ. I plan to renew my AZ permit when mine expires since it allows me to carry in ND and TX.

[John S.]

But they are interrelated by law:

But, according to The Washington Post, on Nov. 30, Loughner legally purchased the Glock 19 semiautomatic pistol that law enforcement officials say he used to shoot U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords at an event Saturday outside a busy supermarket in Tucson, Ariz., killing one of her aides, a federal judge, a 9-year-old girl and three retirees.

And that has revived the debate about gun ownership laws throughout the nation, but particularly in Arizona, which has some of the weakest gun control laws in the country. State laws there permit any law-abiding citizen over age 18 to buy a gun.

"At some point we need to ask the question: How did this man with this history of mental instability end up with this weapon," Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin, D-Ill., said on CNN's "State of the Union" today.

"How did he go through the process and end up with this gun and this ammunition?"

As long as medical records, especially mental health records, are regarded as private information and privileged communication between patient and provider, then some individuals with shall we say "behavioral peculiarities" will be able to obtain at least some sort of weapons legally in almost all US jurisdictions.

The choices, as I see them are these:
1. Complete and total access to individual medical and mental health records by virtually anyone for any purpose, or
2. Severe limitations on gun ownership.

There may be some middle ground somewhere, but practical application seems to be a tremendously daunting task. It seems impossible to have both access to weapons (at levels we are used to in the US) AND restrictions to gun ownership based on physical or mental conditions. It also seems that - as usual - the loudest voices are screaming "solutions" that are polar opposites from each other, making compromise and workable solutions that much more difficult, and unlikely, to be seen and heard.

Agree 110% EXCEPT by anyone for any purpose...............................

[hammAR]

I would want to be real careful with all this "mental" and "unbalanced" stuff.............Since psychology is relatively subjective in most cases, and even the professionals can not guarantee 100% diagnosis in all but extreme cases. it would be real easy to have someone put on the "list", by complaining because you didn't like them, reporting them on your i-phone GSA applet, or very similar to what they attempted to do with military personnel that came back from the sand box and saw a shrink for numerous problems and issues.

Do you really want a list for anyone that has had depression (regardless of the reason like cancer or post-partum) or anxiety, or maybe they just prefer to be alone because they are shy and introverted. When we start classifying and grouping folks with generalities, it is a train that is difficult to bring back to the station. Look at some of the no-fly issues, do you really want the BATF or TSA to make the determinations and maintain those lists..........

IF you answer yes, then you are also part of the problem and an effen nanny-state sheep.....

[John S.]

I would want to be real careful with all this "mental" and "unbalanced" stuff.............Since psychology is relatively subjective in most cases, and even the professionals can not guarantee 100% diagnosis in all but extreme cases. it would be real easy to have someone put on the "list", by complaining because you didn't like them, reporting them on your i-phone GSA applet, or very similar to what they attempted to do with military personnel that came back from the sand box and saw a shrink for numerous problems and issues.

Do you really want a list for anyone that has had depression (regardless of the reason like cancer or post-partum) or anxiety, or maybe they just prefer to be alone because they are shy and introverted. When we start classifying and grouping folks with generalities, it is a train that is difficult to bring back to the station. Look at some of the no-fly issues, do you really want the BATF or TSA to make the determinations and maintain those lists..........

IF you answer yes, then you are also part of the problem and an effen nanny-state sheep.....

Good Point, but, what then SHOULD be done to keep people like this nut job from going armed?

[jweiss]

I would want to be real careful with all this "mental" and "unbalanced" stuff.............Since psychology is relatively subjective in most cases, and even the professionals can not guarantee 100% diagnosis in all but extreme cases. it would be real easy to have someone put on the "list", by complaining because you didn't like them, reporting them on your i-phone GSA applet, or very similar to what they attempted to do with military personnel that came back from the sand box and saw a shrink for numerous problems and issues.

Do you really want a list for anyone that has had depression (regardless of the reason like cancer or post-partum) or anxiety, or maybe they just prefer to be alone because they are shy and introverted. When we start classifying and grouping folks with generalities, it is a train that is difficult to bring back to the station. Look at some of the no-fly issues, do you really want the BATF or TSA to make the determinations and maintain those lists..........

IF you answer yes, then you are also part of the problem and an effen nanny-state sheep.....

I read alot of posts on here don't usually comment much but I agree with hammAr on this one.

[Dick Unger]

He was able to buy a handgun in November because AZ does an instant background check at the time of purchase.
People at the community college had reported his behavior, but he was not on any watch list or warrants,
he had no gross-misdemeanors or felonies, so the check came back clean.
He went to walmart and bought 100 rounds of FMJ, to fill 3 magazines (31 or 33)

It is not about clearing the NICS check, not about buying a gun, ability to buy the gun, eligibility to own a gun, it is about people ignoring a pattern of behavior, reports of his behavior being dead ended with people thinking that it is not their problem, or responsibility, and a lack of awareness of the problem.

If you get booted out of school because you are scaring people, it is not enough to just toss him out of school. People need to know, people need to act and take these problems seriously. Would intervention when someone knew he was "off" have helped? Perhaps, it would have been better than any intervention that was tried with this character in the past.

Set the access to guns agenda asides and look more closely at the CORE ISSUE / mental health problems, awareness and intervention.

Pinnacle nailed it.

It appears that his school teachers and counselors were very familier with his illogical behavior. Their response? Kick him out, send him down the street. Exactly what will increaase his frustration, and they should be trained to know that. He was a textbook case of mentally ill; probably could be easily handled with some meds. But nobody will blame THEM for sending a dangerous guy away, instead, they'll blame the clerk at the gunstore for not stopping this.

[Tommy Gun]

I'm sure more than a couple of people on this forum find me strange enough to report to the "proper authorities."

Maybe we already have.

[jweiss]

I would want to be real careful with all this "mental" and "unbalanced" stuff.............Since psychology is relatively subjective in most cases, and even the professionals can not guarantee 100% diagnosis in all but extreme cases. it would be real easy to have someone put on the "list", by complaining because you didn't like them, reporting them on your i-phone GSA applet, or very similar to what they attempted to do with military personnel that came back from the sand box and saw a shrink for numerous problems and issues.

Do you really want a list for anyone that has had depression (regardless of the reason like cancer or post-partum) or anxiety, or maybe they just prefer to be alone because they are shy and introverted. When we start classifying and grouping folks with generalities, it is a train that is difficult to bring back to the station. Look at some of the no-fly issues, do you really want the BATF or TSA to make the determinations and maintain those lists..........

IF you answer yes, then you are also part of the problem and an effen nanny-state sheep.....

Good Point, but, what then SHOULD be done to keep people like this nut job from going armed?

Don't quite know,but was amazed that with all the carrying going on in Az no one shot back at this nut job.

[Heffay]

Good Point, but, what then SHOULD be done to keep people like this nut job from going armed?

You can't stop it 100%. There is no guaranteed safety, no matter what you do.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... tml?hpt=T2

That's a pretty relevant article to the discussion. But it all comes down to how mentally ill is too mentally ill to own a gun? There is such a huge range that it's impossible to draw a firm line.[youtube=][/youtube]

[tman]

Pinnacle nailed it.

It appears that his school teachers and counselors were very familier with his illogical behavior. Their response? Kick him out, send him down the street. Exactly what will increaase his frustration, and they should be trained to know that. He was a textbook case of mentally ill; probably could be easily handled with some meds. But nobody will blame THEM for sending a dangerous guy away, instead, they'll blame the clerk at the gunstore for not stopping this.

Dick, I'm sure you know how hard it is to just get someone even evaluated, much less committed for mental health issues. At what point do you think he was an obvious danger to himself or others?

[DeanC]

Seems to me we used to take mental health a lot more seriously. Then that stupid movie "The Snake Pit" came out and it's been downhill since then.