Rifle primers in .44 mag?

[westberg]

Aw you are ruining my fun

Sorry didn't mean to ruin your fun, carry on.....

[farmerj]

Do they have pretty pictures to look at?

[Rodentman]

I didn't mean to open a can of worms. Seemed like a good question at the time...

Maybe I will meet dleong again and we can shoot together. I always want to learn stuff, which was my intent in posting the query initially.

Just got some .45 AR brass in the mail today so that's the current project this week. It's Remington but I have some Starline coming as well.

[farmerj]

I'd be interested in learning more on what led him to use the LR primers in this load.

Sounds like an interesting development process that's not in a bunch of manuals.

[dleong]

And BTW, what powder are you using in your 44 loads? H110/296 is the de facto standard, but Lil' Gun is pretty much the wave of the future for big case magnum handgun loads.

My current "full house" .44 Mag recipe calls for 23.6 gr. of H110/W296 under a 240 gr. projectile (usually either a Hornady XTP JHP or a Remington JSP) at an OAL of 1.64", with a moderate roll crimp. Cases are mixed, with the preferred primer being the Winchester LPP; if I do use large rifle primers, they go only into R-P cases which, as mentioned in a previous post, seem to have a marginally deeper primer pocket that allows the primer to sit slightly below flush without needing to be forced in. This recipe is good for around 1490 fps out of my Ruger SBH with a 10.5" barrel.

I also have a slightly softer shooting recipe which replaces the 23.6 gr. H110/W296 with 19.5 gr. of WC820, with everything else remaining the same. This load averages about 1370 fps. out of the barrel of the same revolver.

Ya know, I've heard enough good things about Lil' Gun that I'm very tempted to give it a try, and will likely do so when the opportunity next presents itself.

[Rodentman]

I have been using:

22.0g H110 with 240g Speer GDHP.

29.1g H110 with 180g Speer JHC.

27.0g H110 with 200g Nosler JHP.

Bounces the 329NG around a bit. I have a 7.5" SRH which is more fun than the NG with those loads. I also shoot a lot of 7.0g Trail Boss with 200g Red River RNFP.

[Seismic Sam]

And BTW, what powder are you using in your 44 loads? H110/296 is the de facto standard, but Lil' Gun is pretty much the wave of the future for big case magnum handgun loads.

Ya know, I've heard enough good things about Lil' Gun that I'm very tempted to give it a try, and will likely do so when the opportunity next presents itself.

Your load data confirms the fact that you are a very careful handloader, and all those loads look manual legit to me.

It's actually interesting, in that H110/296 44 mag charges have a bad reputation for reduced loads, with one manual showing a min of 23 grains of H110/296 and a max of 24 grains,. with the supposed rationale being that with reduced charges you can have flashover in the case and a pressure spike. Now you come along, and do the due diligence with your chrono and SD calcs to run rifle primers, and your velocity SD goes down. It is possible that rifle primers in a 44 essentally erase the possibility of a flashover becuase thy light the whole case up to ignition, regardless of where the powder is in the case??

As far as Lil' Gun, it was originally designed for .410 shotshells (whoppee! ) and has turned out to be the magnum equivalent to Unique in pistol powders. Go figure. For a real life story.I have a 440 Corbon Magnum barrel for my 50 Desert Eagle. As a caliber it was a complete dud, and is deader that the 41 Action Express. The stats for factory ammo are impressive, and with a 50 AE case necked down to 44 caliber, it can kick a 240 grain JHP out of a 6.0" barrel at 1600 FPS. The initial recipe was for the usual large dose of H110/296, but this would not duplicate factory specs at all. The guys at Corbon were nice enough to let me in on the inside scoop, which was that AA#7 could give you the factory spec velocities. It turned out that this was true, BUT the pressure levels were witchy as hell, and I had cases where the extractor was seriously deforming the very stout case rims. I eventually gave up on AA#7, but after loading enough 500 Smith ammo with Lil' Gun instead of H110/296, I decided to revisit the 440 Corbon loads with Lil' Gun. Worked up a load that ran at 1600 FPS as it should, and no intermittent deformed case rims or stuck cases!! The burn rate of Lil' Gun is VERY close to H110/296, but in the 500 Smith it always produces better velocities. Bottom line, Lil' Gun seems to produce more energy than H110/296 when it burns, and that makes all the difference. I think you'll like playing with it...

[dleong]

Maybe I will meet dleong again and we can shoot together. I always want to learn stuff, which was my intent in posting the query initially.

I must apologize for not taking the time to talk with you during our previous encounter at the BPR, and hope you can accord me the honor and privilege of another opportunity to meet, chat and shoot with you sometime in the near future.

How often are you at the BPR?

[Rodentman]

I'm at the range almost every week. Planning to go Friday since we have that day off. Gonna load some 45 AR and also shoot a bunch of 22's out of the 617 with the red dot.

[crbutler]

Sam knows what he knows, after his racist rant on Serbia, I guess I don't count his opinion much.

Just because the primers are "silver" means jack. They are brass with a nickel plating for corrosion resistance. Shotgun primers have lately gone to a steel cup, the primer itself is brass, but that's a different issue. You can even recycle them as brass if you want. (used only!!! )

Lots of pistol rounds are loaded with small rifle primers- most any IPSC open gun load uses them, not just the 9x23.

Lots of .357 Mag loads specify them as well.

I think that the Casull and 460 S&W and the .500 S&W all use small rifle primers. It is because of 2 things, need to seal the primer pocket (the rifle primers are a bit heavier in the cup- your tuned S&W may not ignite them in a .357) and to ignite the larger charges of a slow powder. IF you work up low and watch for pressure sign, you can use the SR primers in handguns for the most part (why you would want to is a different story... ) They are the same size.

Large rifle primers are a different story. They are not interchangeable by any means. They are longer (Front to back) than the pistol primers. They usually have a considerably larger amount of priming compound than the large pistol ones. This may be why you are having better luck with them with the H110 loads- large amounts of a ball type powder don't tend to ignite real easily. It will cause the pressure curve to be different, possibly radically so. If you are not having problems with pressure signs (in a revolver, that may be hard to check- try mic'ing for case head expansion) and you can seat them flush with the case head, slam fire or recoil firing is LESS likely to happen with them than the LP primers (that heavy cup thing...) but you really need to know how to check for pressure signs and it is definitely not for inexperienced reloaders. To be honest, its not something I would have tried, but the theory is sound, and if your gun likes them better, and you are comfortable with it, it makes some sense in a way.

Heck the Palma rifle brass in .308 Win. that Lapua makes uses small primers (more consistent supposedly) instead of large primers. They state you use the same load data.... so I don't know how much the change is, but that there MAY be a change, its untested data-- kind of like quickload.

[Seismic Sam]

Yup. I know what I know, and having dealt with a Serb living less than 1 mile away from me, (and out here, that's 6 houses away) my opinion stands. Oh, as far as details are concerned, the S&W 500 uses LARGE rifle primers. Your bad.

As far as the brass primers, that's my bad, and dleong is totally right that I should have researched the primer issue more before publishing my tutorial. I'm grateful for the input. Thanks.

[crbutler]

You are right that the current stuff is large rifle primers. Same with the .460 S&W.

I seem to recall the first stuff was large pistol, then I had a bunch that someone made that used small rifle primers, but I can't find the cases now. I think it was Cor Bon ammo made on starline brass.

Mea Culpa.

[RLF2011]

You do reallize that the cup of the Large Rifle is taller then the Large Pistol Primer? So, may be having ignition problems unless you permantly deepen prmer pocket. They are not interchangeable like that of the Small Pistol Primer and Small Rifle Primer as common for some of the high pressure handgun loadings.......

[mmcnx2]

You do reallize that the cup of the Large Rifle is taller then the Large Pistol Primer? So, may be having ignition problems unless you permantly deepen prmer pocket. They are not interchangeable like that of the Small Pistol Primer and Small Rifle Primer as common for some of the high pressure handgun loadings.......

Did you even read the thread before posting this? That observation was made 2 pages ago, but nice pad to your post count.

[1911fan]

There are all sorts of anomalies in reloading.

Two of the best reloaders I know have loads that exist in no ones manuals than their own and one of them has posted on this page. One of those is seismic. His online mannerisms may be gruff but his knowledge of the far fringes of pressure and velocity are to be respected.

Many years ago when small pistol primers went missing for close to two years a lot of us worked up small rifle primer loads for reloading. A very few are still in use. They are safe in my specific gun and I keep them quite to my self.

The point is as soon as someone says "never" or "always" in reloading you are wrong. I remember went Scott powders showed up, the first batch had a small gauge shotshell powder that was terrific in heavy bullet revolver loads for silhoutte matches. 200gr lead fp's launched from .357's and all sorts of other oddballs all worked great till the next lot of powder came over. Ever see a Dan Wesson .357 maximum or a .445 super mag? No, well that's because scoffs powder probably blew it up.