7mm Remington Magnum Data

[crbutler]

JJ has it right.

The CT/Ballistic tip bullets are not built as heavily and tend to come apart. My experience this happens as low as 2600 FPS at impact. In a 30-06 I blew a deer's shoulder apart with one. Yes, the deer was down, but it ruined a whole quarter for eating, and it took a second round to kill it. If this happens with a measly 30-06.... I know guys who had these bullets fail (as in no recovered animal) when shooting Elk (.300 Weatherby with 180 BT). The reason I used the bullet was that it shot better than anything else in that rifle, and I figured deer, well anything will kill deer. I won't do that again. The 168 .308 CT is one of the rounds that I found Nosler's BC to be a bit suspect, as its closer to .400 than .500 in my rifles, but that's a study of 3 guns.

Nosler's Partition and to some extent, accubond don't do the same lack of weight retention that the ballistic tip has, and honestly, I have come to the conclusion that for me (and only me) the ballistic tips are a varmint bullet.

The TSX line has never failed me with penetration (cape buffalo and african plains game, although using a .375 for PG really makes the penetration argument a nonsequitur) and the only knock I have heard on it is that it doesn't seem to shock the game as well as a lead cored bullet will. I know some rifles that shoot them (TSX) well. My .375 H&H is a solid 1/2 MOA gun with the 300 grain TSX. My 30-06 Dakota is one that doesn't seem to like them as much (about 1.25 MOA) Whether the TSX is accurate is all in the individual rifle. Whether its worth using for a hunt is based on accuracy and terminal ballistics, which this thread is not really concerned about it seems (just the energy at distance and amount of drop) and BC is meaningless if you have a good rangefinder, a good wind velocity measurement and good dope on your load- dial it in and hit what you are shooting at. BC helps if you have some degree of error in your rangefinding or wind estimation skills only. The required kinetic energy is going to be there well past any reasonable shot.

Snowgun, as far as I am concerned, if your rifle likes the TSX or TTSX, I would not use anything else. The TSX is the only expanding bullet I now use with my african bolt rifles, but that's because they shoot well in those guns and penetrate. You can't complain about the results you have at all. The only reason I would try a different bullet is if you think your accuracy is lacking. 0.3 MOA? I would not bother with the CT Silvertip. My comment was meant that the Game King or the Ballistic Silver Tip will fragment if you have too high a impact velocity. The Barnes will not have that problem.

Sam, part of the reason I said what I did is that the 300gr SMK is not a hunting bullet, and your touting it in comparison to the Barnes TSX line is really apples to tomatoes. Comparing a dedicated long range target bullet to a antimaterial round for BC purposes is disingenuous also. If you are going to compare a specialized LR target set up, compare it to another specialized LR target set up. As I see it, all the hunting type bullets typically have BC's that are reasonably close as long as you compare "similar" bullets. I think your comparison of the 7mm RM hunting loads to specialized long range target rounds is not a reasonable argument. My .50 is not really set up for extreme range shooting. Semi autos just are not as good as a good bolt gun for that, having said that, I can get consistent hits out to 1000 with it on 55 gallon barrels. Is that true long range accuracy? No. But it does what I ask it to, and that is about at the limits of my ability to shoot a non benched gun. I don't do any better with the A Max, except it does require a few rounds to get the elevation changes settled in because I'm not sitting and writing down drops at 1000 (although I really should...) I don't compete at long range rifle, I don't have the patience for it. Having said that, I will match you guys round for round with my .50 vs your .338's and I suspect I will still be happily pulling the trigger long after you have given up from the recoil and concussion. You also need to brush up on what a smiley ( ) is supposed to mean.

[Seismic Sam]

The Sage of Anoka (JJ) has spoken...

And crbutler, yes, comparing Matchkings to Gamekings is apples and oranges, but my intent was to show Snowgun how much of a difference the BC can make downrange, and he is interested in the data out to 700 yards, and that's the only reason I did it. Besides, the big Sierra 7mm hunting bullets still have BC's in the high .5's.

[Snowgun]

Trust me, Sam, the Barnes products are worlds better for game than a Ballistic Silvertip or a Gameking, at magnum velocities. They would work fine in a 7 RM if you knew nothing would be closer than 300 yards away, but that doesn't always happen.

CR, can you explain what you mean by the above? I've had great luck with the TTSX the last two years in a 140 g (shooting game at 100, 200, 250, 350, 500, and 550 yrds). Would you say they would be more accurate than the silvertip? I can get 0.3 MOA with the TTSX out of my supergrade. Can the silvertip at least match that?

I would guess it has to do with the fact that the TSX line is know to thru and thru at closer ranges. The Noslers and Gamekings do a much better job at dumping their energy quickly.

Holy crap that's Johan! I'll have to tell him I saw his pro shooting skills on video at our next match..

Hell, I get thru and thru at 500 yds sometimes, and as glocker loves to say "two holes bleed more than one". I'm just worried about getting expansion at the most effective depth.

It seems to me that the TTSX alleviates some of the issues with the TSX, such as giving it a little better BC and helping expansion (?). Tell you what though, assuming I would push bullets at roughly the same speed, and with the MOA accuracy i'm getting, I"ll take some parasitic drag any day if it means I can put metal on target. The way I see it, at the same speeds, i'm loosing at most, what 1MOA of drop to drag?

Why doesn't that MRX have a better BC than the TTSX at 140? Doesn't make any sense to me....(they should get more weight and therefore need less bearing surface, and maybe get rid of a band or two that sucks air in flight...)

[crbutler]

Actually, the TTSX is a bit harder than the TSX, but given it has the polymer tip, it doesn't have the occasional embarrassing "pencil" through hit that the TSX occasionally has in the smaller calibers. If what you are after is killing game at 500-700 and you have the willpower to not shoot at anything less than 200 yards out, a 7 RM with a Sierra might be a better choice, as the Barnes bullets may not expand reliably at that distance (I have variously heard 1800 or 1200) FPS impact speed to ensure reliable expansion.

The big sierra bullets will work fine at 700. They will come apart on game at 100. Most of the time, you get the shot at game at under 200 yards. It is not a good idea for a hunting round. Ditto for a CT Ballistic silvertip. A cup and core bullet, like the sierras work great in a 7x57, but the 7RM, or the faster 7's just have too much velocity for those bullets sometimes. I like through penetration, so they are out for me at this kind of velocity- some folks like to have the bullet remain in the animal, and may be happy with them at borderline velocities.

As to the differences in BC, it probably has to do with imperfections in balancing the tungsten insert in the MRX base. The other advantage with the MRX is that its shorter than the TSX/TTSX so doesn't intrude so much with powder space, although that was only an issue for me with the 30-06 using RL22.

If all you want is to put holes in paper at 700, then a SMK is a great choice, as is the A Max. Neither are good choices as a hunting bullet, although sometimes they work.

[Snowgun]

Actually, the TTSX is a bit harder than the TSX, but given it has the polymer tip, it doesn't have the occasional embarrassing "pencil" through hit that the TSX occasionally has in the smaller calibers. If what you are after is killing game at 500-700 and you have the willpower to not shoot at anything less than 200 yards out, a 7 RM with a Sierra might be a better choice, as the Barnes bullets may not expand reliably at that distance (I have variously heard 1800 or 1200) FPS impact speed to ensure reliable expansion.

The big sierra bullets will work fine at 700. They will come apart on game at 100. Most of the time, you get the shot at game at under 200 yards. It is not a good idea for a hunting round. Ditto for a CT Ballistic silvertip. A cup and core bullet, like the sierras work great in a 7x57, but the 7RM, or the faster 7's just have too much velocity for those bullets sometimes. I like through penetration, so they are out for me at this kind of velocity- some folks like to have the bullet remain in the animal, and may be happy with them at borderline velocities.

As to the differences in BC, it probably has to do with imperfections in balancing the tungsten insert in the MRX base. The other advantage with the MRX is that its shorter than the TSX/TTSX so doesn't intrude so much with powder space, although that was only an issue for me with the 30-06 using RL22.

If all you want is to put holes in paper at 700, then a SMK is a great choice, as is the A Max. Neither are good choices as a hunting bullet, although sometimes they work.

Honestly, where I hunt it's more of a 400-600, followed by occasional 150-250 shots. 600-700 would be pushing it for me, the bullet, and an accurate read from my range finder. I've been aware of the opening issue at lower speeds, but from what i've seen it's worked fine at 550.

What grain sierra are you referring to above? And do you see any problems with the TTSX at shorter distances?

[crbutler]

I see no problems with the TTSX at all. As I said, the Barnes products work for me, and it's what I use when I'm paying big money on a hunt. From what you have said, I would just keep using the 140 TTSX and leave it alone. Close in they are devastating, and at a distance, they seem to be fine, just not as expansive as a lead cup and core, and if you hit the animal in the right place it will go down.

The big Sierras are essentially anything over 160 grains in a 7mm; by big I mean anything that is heavy for caliber. Sierra's hunting bullets have a rep of being soft, so I don't use them, but I do like the SMK's, just not in a hunting gun. If you get out there a ways and your impact velocity is under 2000 FPS, they will do very well.

I will say your shooting ability is dang good. I would not personally take a field shot at anything over 500.

[Snowgun]

I will say your shooting ability is dang good. I would not personally take a field shot at anything over 500.

Thanks!, though in all honesty, it's pretty easy on your own ranch, where you have all the distances figured (and backed up with a laser), and it's the evening or early morning, where there is minimal wind, and you have a good pair of shooting sticks, and the deer stand there and eat forever..........and a flat shooting 7mm!

Did you know that when it's quiet you can still hear the bullet hit at that distance?