New to reloading - a phased approach?

[yuppiejr]

Hi gents,

First off thanks for all of the great insights and help I see shared regularly in this forum.

I'm of a similar mindset as a similar poster (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=21972) but have not eliminated the Lee press from consideration and really liked the "KISS" approach in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7381) - basically looking to replace purchase of factory handgun ammunition entirely (defensive & practice.. if I even need to categorize them separately after moving to handloads) along with .223 and 7.62x54r (if I can find some brass...) down the road. I'm not working up target/long distance rifle loads or anything of that sort at this time. Hopefully I don't come across as a know-it-all or anything of the sort, I make absolutely no claim to have any experience reloading but wanted to do the preliminary legwork by doing research here and then outlining what seems like a logical starting point for a reloading setup based on what's been suggested to others with similar questions in the past.

I'm reading the ABC's of Reloading right now and am planning to pick up Lyman, Hornady and Lee manuals as part of an order that will also include a Lyman case tumbler w/ media & separator basket, Lee "C-clamp" style press, the RCBS pocket swager combo and shell case length gauge + holders for .45 ACP and .223. I have a significant stock of crimped & once-shot 5.56 brass and enough factory ammo remaining that it will be more cost effective to clean & decrimp what I have ($60 for the press & swager kit + shell holders) vs buying new unprimed brass ($120 for 1000 Lake City). I figured I'd get to work decrimping/depriming the brass using the cheapo Lee C-clamp press + the RBCS pocket swager kit and then put the deprimed brass in the tumbler before sorting so I've got a stock of clean and sorted (by headstamp) brass to reload down the road. This should take a while and give me lots of time to read all of the manuals cover to cover before I go any further down the rabbit hole. I'm trying to keep the entire investment (including brass prep equipment, reference materials, press/dies/powder scale/etc...) around or under $400 excluding consumables.

Right now I'm strongly considering the Lee 4-hole turret press deluxe kit ($99 at Natchez) which also gets me their Auto Disk Powder Measure, Magnetic (jewler style) powder scale and their case trimmer (to match the studs from my previous order) & primer pocket cleaner tool. There seem to be a few fans (as well as a few critics) around here of the Lee press but I thought this was really impressive write-up of the product: http://www.realguns.com/archives/122.htm and it seems like a lot of bang for the buck. I also like the inexpensive Safety Prime system add-on option for $20 and the ability to set up inexpensive ($8 a pop at Natchez) turrets for each caliber you load (I'll start with 2 but can easily see adding 9mm, 38 spc, 40 S&W and 7.62x54R and .270 down the road).

I'd still need the bullet puller mallet, loading trays, powder funnel, die sets (.45 ACP carbide 4 pc, .223 deluxe 3-pc for now), a spare 4-hole turret, digital calipers, plastic cartridge boxes and either the Lee hand primer or the Safety-Prime system that works with the 4-hole press, though technically the press already includes a provision for priming on press if you don't mind hand loading each primer on to the press. I am not even planning consumables yet (powder, bullets, primers, sizing lube) until I am done reading the books. Not sure if I need a crimp die for the .45 ACP yet, still need to read and figure out if it's included in the 4-pc carbide set.

Any feedback on my direction so far, in particular the approach to priming? Does my approach to brass prep/cleaning what I own vs buying new make sense or am I missing a factor in my mental equation?

Thanks in advance,

Jason

[macphisto]

The 4-piece pistol die sets from Lee include the Factory Crimp Die.

You should absolutely use and reuse the brass you already have. One thing you may want to reconsider, however, is tumbling deprimed brass. It can result in a big headache when bits of media stick in the primer pocket and/or flash hole.

[LarryFlew]

100% agree on the primed brass-been there done that - PITA.

I did basically what your doing but I do mine in stages rather than using the press like a turret press. IE I do all my depriming at one time, then prime with hand held for rifle and 45 because for me it was a pain to use the press for priming and I really needed that extra hole (3 hole press for me). Then powder a blocks worth and finish with seating and Fac crimp.

I don't think you find many against the Lee for turret etc, just the progressives. I also like my Lee 1000 for loading 9mm and keep it set that way but that would jump you past your budget.

GL, interesting and fun addition to the hobby.

[rugersol]

That kit looks like a good deal!

Beware though, lots of Lee Turret owners end up removing the "auto-index" rod ... at which, the whole thing becomes basically a "cheap" version of a comparable Lyman, RCBS, or Redding.

I ran a 3-hole Lee fer a couple years ... loaded LOTS of good ammo with it ... takes patience to develop the right "rhythm" with the "auto-index", though! That's why I typically recommend the Lyman T-Mag II.

No need to buy extra turrets ... I know that's a marketing thing with Lee ... and the Lee dies don't come with locking rings ... but if ya get some locking rings, ya only need one turret. That said, at $8/turret, I'd probly get a couple.

Too bad Lee don't make a "breach-lock" Turret press! ... or Hornady, fer that matter! Still, lock-rings 'er extra turrets, it's a very minor annoyance.

As to decapping/priming/the-rest in separate batches, I used to do this on my 3-hole ... 'sept I'd tumble 'fore decapping! With the 4-hole, yer still gonna hafta pull the lever 4 times to get the expansion die back around, again ... so I'd probly leave the decap/size in, maybe knock out any media left behind? At that, I'd use the 14/20 grit corn-cob media from Grainger ... it's purdy fine stuff!

[yuppiejr]

Thanks for the info, I'll save the decapping for after I've tumbled.

Lee has a "50th anniversary reloading kit" that gets you their single stage O frame "Challenger" press, Safety Prime Tool, Perfect Powder measure, Powder funnel, Case Trimmer, Chamfer, Pocket Cleaner, sizing lube, Safety Powder Scale and one (!) breech lock quick change bushing for less than $100. Other than the obvious gouging that will occur if you end up wanting to buy 3-4 quick change breeches per die set at $7 a pair (vs $8 for an extra turret that will hold 4 dies...) it seems like a pretty newbie friendly option. A version of the same kit with the Lee hand priming tool and the set of 11 case holders is also available for $15 more. Somehow I think having a single station press on-hand will never be a bad thing even if I add a turret press to the shop later. Not sure about the priming option yet, guessing I'll end up owning a hand primer at some point regardless. If I end up going with another Lee press for a turret later I like the design of the "Classic" versus the standard 4-hole a bit better which isn't available in a kit.

I did pick up a Lyman Pro 1200 Turbo Tumbler with media and a couple more books today (Lyman 39th + Hornady 8th Edition) in addition to my bullet pulling mallet and electronic calipers that seem to be the basic components of any self respecting reloader's toolkit. Back to reading while I tumble the few hundred rounds my friend and I shot over at Bills this afternoon.... so it begins.

[1911fan]

I know the kits look good, and are a good deal, but I tended to find individual items that I liked better.

I have an old redding scale, a few iron O style presses, and even a couple of those cheap lee C presses, which I found ONLY worked well for me in seating bullets. I found too much deflection in resizing anything over a short pistol case. I bought a T mag press, which I like, and once upon a time had a CH style H press, all of which had plusses, but when you get to the point of understanding the process, making the jump to a progressive is really the way to go for loading pistol or small rifle ammo. I have loaded for close to (GASP) 35 years, and the ability to make short runs of ammo that numbered in the hundreds vs tens, is a huge plus in the domestic tranquility area.

[rugersol]

I know the kits look good, and are a good deal, but I tended to find individual items that I liked better.

I have an old redding scale, a few iron O style presses, and even a couple of those cheap lee C presses, which I found ONLY worked well for me in seating bullets. I found too much deflection in resizing anything over a short pistol case. I bought a T mag press, which I like, and once upon a time had a CH style H press, all of which had plusses, but when you get to the point of understanding the process, making the jump to a progressive is really the way to go for loading pistol or small rifle ammo. I have loaded for close to (GASP) 35 years, and the ability to make short runs of ammo that numbered in the hundreds vs tens, is a huge plus in the domestic tranquility area.

Ok ... I'll pile on that ...

Sounds like yer up in the air on presses?

Way I see it, there's 3 things to loadin' pistol that can either go really well ... 'er not!

1. priming ... this is where the progressives really shine! ... if I was afraid of my own shadow, I'd STILL get a progressive, jest so I could prime on the press with almost no hassle (**** happens sometimes, but like 1 in 500 ... vs. 1 in 10 'er so)

2. charging ... the Hornady and Dillon progressives come with nice case-activated powder-measures ... with a proper scale, mine's good to 0.1gr ... so long as I don't let it run dry, 'er otherwise short-stroke the press, to double-charge, it's almost infallible

3. case-handling (not case-prep) ... I'm talkin' "grab a case" ... "stick it in the shell-holder" ... "pull the lever" ... "pull the case back out" ... repeat 50 - 100 times ... "switch out yer die" ... and do ALL that again! ... and again! ... and maybe even, again! ... and THAT's if ya charge each case off the press! ... otherwise, AGAIN!

I'm guessing the Dillon's more 'er less the same as the Hornady ... but speaking to the Hornady, if ya wanted, ya could mount one die (all the other holes empty), stick a case in, pull the lever ... stick a case in, pull the lever ... stick a case in, pull the lever ... etc. ... as the case rotates around, it's automatically ejected (ya jest eliminated half yer case-handling! )

Once ya get to where that's not so scary, ya can mount all yer dies, and run one case all the way through at a time ... "stick it in the shell-holder" ... "pull the lever" ... "push the lever back a skosh" (this primes the case) ... "pull the lever" ... "pull the lever" ... "set a bullet on top" ... "pull the lever" ... "pull the lever" ... repeat 50 - 100 times ... look in yer bin, ya got 50 - 100 completely loaded rounds!

And when ya get super-brave, it's all the same, 'sept 'tween pullin' the lever each time, "stick 'nother case in" and "set 'nother bullet on top" ... once the shellplate's full, fer every pull of the lever, ya made a new completely loaded round!

There's yer "phased" approach!

[Rem700]

I know the kits look good, and are a good deal, but I tended to find individual items that I liked better.

I have an old redding scale, a few iron O style presses, and even a couple of those cheap lee C presses, which I found ONLY worked well for me in seating bullets. I found too much deflection in resizing anything over a short pistol case. I bought a T mag press, which I like, and once upon a time had a CH style H press, all of which had plusses, but when you get to the point of understanding the process, making the jump to a progressive is really the way to go for loading pistol or small rifle ammo. I have loaded for close to (GASP) 35 years, and the ability to make short runs of ammo that numbered in the hundreds vs tens, is a huge plus in the domestic tranquility area.

Ok ... I'll pile on that ...

Sounds like yer up in the air on presses?

Way I see it, there's 3 things to loadin' pistol that can either go really well ... 'er not!

1. priming ... this is where the progressives really shine! ... if I was afraid of my own shadow, I'd STILL get a progressive, jest so I could prime on the press with almost no hassle (**** happens sometimes, but like 1 in 500 ... vs. 1 in 10 'er so)

2. charging ... the Hornady and Dillon progressives come with nice case-activated powder-measures ... with a proper scale, mine's good to 0.1gr ... so long as I don't let it run dry, 'er otherwise short-stroke the press, to double-charge, it's almost infallible

3. case-handling (not case-prep) ... I'm talkin' "grab a case" ... "stick it in the shell-holder" ... "pull the lever" ... "pull the case back out" ... repeat 50 - 100 times ... "switch out yer die" ... and do ALL that again! ... and again! ... and maybe even, again! ... and THAT's if ya charge each case off the press! ... otherwise, AGAIN!

I'm guessing the Dillon's more 'er less the same as the Hornady ... but speaking to the Hornady, if ya wanted, ya could mount one die (all the other holes empty), stick a case in, pull the lever ... stick a case in, pull the lever ... stick a case in, pull the lever ... etc. ... as the case rotates around, it's automatically ejected (ya jest eliminated half yer case-handling! )

Once ya get to where that's not so scary, ya can mount all yer dies, and run one case all the way through at a time ... "stick it in the shell-holder" ... "pull the lever" ... "push the lever back a skosh" (this primes the case) ... "pull the lever" ... "pull the lever" ... "set a bullet on top" ... "pull the lever" ... "pull the lever" ... repeat 50 - 100 times ... look in yer bin, ya got 50 - 100 completely loaded rounds!

And when ya get super-brave, it's all the same, 'sept 'tween pullin' the lever each time, "stick 'nother case in" and "set 'nother bullet on top" ... once the shellplate's full, fer every pull of the lever, ya made a new completely loaded round!

There's yer "phased" approach!

I have often wondered why so many recommend a single stage when a progressive can be ran like a single stage depending on how many dies you elect to install at any one time. I started out many years ago with a RCBS Rockchucker which I still have and use for low volume runs of ammo but also have multiple Dillons setup for ammo that I shot and load on a regular high volume basis. Single stage turret or progressive the dies still have to be set up in the same manner.

[gyrfalcon]

With single stage you're doing a single process at once, with progessive you can screw up a lot of processes at once. I would start with a single stage since it still is usefull even if you move on to a progressive the next day.

[imyz1]

K.I.S.S.-...is all I will say...Ken

[yuppiejr]

Thanks gents, right now I'm pretty much stuck with either a Lee 4-hole Turret or Challenger / O-frame "single stage" press kit based on my budget, a progressive sounds like a great long term option when I want to really crank out significant quantities of ammunition and have more money and experience particularly in my "'primary" loadings (45 ACP, .223/5.56 and 9mm). I realize I'll probably grow out of the Lee kit setup at some point but I assume everything in the kit will still function as viable backups should something in my primary setup fail or I want to load a low volume of rifle cartridges (7.62x54r or .270 soft points for hunting, as an example).

What I've come down to on the O-frame vs Turret press is what will have the greatest long-term utility in my reloading kit... right now it seems like the Challenger O-frame may be a bit more rigid than the turret which means it may be better for precision rifle loading and resizing duties long term? If there were a kit with the "classic" turret press included it would be a harder choice but right now I'm leaning heavily toward the single stage Challenger kit with the hand priming tool accessories included. This would be a whole different exercise if I had more money to work with but for now I'm running a shoestring budget and trying to make the most of the experience learning the reloading basics while I'm hanging out on the "low end." Does anyone else make a kit like the Lee stuff out there with the included scale, powder measure, etc.. in the same $100-$125 price range that's worth looking at (single stage, turret, etc..)?

I had a lot more .223 brass than I thought, I'm on my 6th batch cleaning right now and the Lyman 1200 Pro is holding up like a champ even if the media sifter lid was giving me trouble until I figured out I just needed to tip the whole thing over a 5 gallon bucket which gets 90% of the corn grit out letting me sort through the rest. Still reading...

[yuppiejr]

So, after finishing another book on reloading (ABC's and Lyman), lurking in numerous reloading forums, watching endless reloading videos and having an opportunity to check out Scott N's new reloading setup I've purchased my equipment setup:

Lee 4-hole Auto-Indexing Turret Deluxe Kit (includes Lee Safety Scale, Lee Auto-Disk powder measure, case prep tools...) + 2 extra 4-hole turrets
Lee Deluxe Carbide Die sets for .45 ACP and 9mm + Lee Deluxe Die set for .223 + Lee .223 Factory Crimp Die
Bullet Puller, 6" digital calipers, powder funnel, reloading trays, plastic cartridge boxes, resizing lube, work light + work bench
Lee Perfect Powder Measure + Lee Safety Prime (Small and Large) + Lee Riser Extension (required to use the AD Powder Measure & Safety Primer tools on the same press)
RBCS Pocket Swagging Die (for prepping crimped .223/9mm primer pockets)

I'm going to focus on a single cartridge to reload for now, .45 ACP - and work from minimum load data until I've gotten the muscle memory and confidence developed in my reloads before working on .222/9mm. I plan on disabling the indexing feature and working in task batches per the Lyman book while I learn rather than through turret cycles and will be producing a few dummy rounds without primer/powder to practice. My first powder charges will all be hand measured through the Lee Powder Measure and charged in trays rather than on the press through the expander dies / Auto Disk measure (I do plan to use this later for quantity production). I debated the merits of priming on the press vs. using a hand priming tool but the Lyman book & a variety of sources seemed to advocate the consistency of press based primer seating so I went that way. The Lee press includes both large and small primer plungers and the Safety Prime system eliminates individual primer handling from the process... it's also $10 cheaper than buying the Auto-Prime + shell holders.

I've had to build a small work bench that can fit into a narrow space in my basement, less than 4' wide and just over 1' deep... and using materials I have on-hand. I ended up bolting a 2 x 10" plank to the top of a steel saw-horse which was cross braced to hold a second 2 x 10" plank of the same length and weighed down with a concrete block at the base (also makes for a handy shelf). I then built a small frame of scrap 2x4's that extends about 2' above and behind the work surface that has pegboard for mounting small tools and a flourescent work light. The whole thing ended up costing $30 out of pocket including a used task chair, a 30" flourescent work light and some nuts & bolts. I was also gifted an interesting Lee kit from my father who knows I'm getting started with reloading that included the Lee reloading manual + a basic C-press that will be handy for decapping batches of brass & using the RCBS swagging kit on my 5.56/.223 brass. Hopefully I'll get everything assembled this weekend and post a picture of my compact loading bench in action. I am planning a trip to Gunstop to meet John and pick up supplies this Saturday (bullets, powder, primers, advice...) to match the loading data in the Lyman book for some .45 ACP recipes with roundnose, SWC and some JHP bullets. Thanks again to everyone here who's provided great advice, insights and product information!

[Scott Notaeh]

A few random thoughts to take or leave from someone who knows little about this stuff.

You might consider the Lee pacesetter set that includes the FCD for .223 rather than the deluxe set plus FCD. I read somewhere that for AR use, this was better but read up on it.

Harbor Freight 6" digital calipers are a gem in the rough and are a great price when on sale or you have a coupon.

When I ordered all my stuff online, Natchez was cheaper than Midway but Midway had a coupon code that made it the winner.

[Pat Cannon]

As I've mentioned, I'm running the same turret kit but just in .38/.357; I think you made a great choice, dollar for dollar.

I've used the auto indexing from the start (but I don't do any rifle ammo). The only defect, in my humble opinion, of the Lee turret auto index is that it fails to auto-advance fully, or at all, if a little square plastic ratchet washer part gets screwed up, which is easy to do, which is why, if it's like my kit, they gave you a couple extra ones. And if you ask Lee to send you more for free they do it. Basically though, if you remember to lift the lever before turning the turret by hand (like when you remove it), you can avoid this issue. There are supposedly people who read the instructions and have never have this problem.

One thing I'd like to upgrade some day is the scale. The Lee Safety Scale is impressive in that it works and it's like $20, but I'd kinda like to go to one of the Ohaus beam scales for a more solid feel, a little faster settling and a higher capacity. If you want to upgrade your scale, keep in mind that (I've read here, maybe you have too) electronic scales are adversely affected by fluorescent lighting.

Mine didn't come with the Safety Prime, so I'd be interested to hear how you like it when you start using it. I'm inserting primers by hand into the Lever Prime thingy on the ram and it works pretty well, except about 1% or 2% of the time when I drop a primer, then there's a several second, or several minute, delay while I look for it (with about 70% success).

And now that you have the Lee manual you'll be able to quote Richard Lee about how vastly superior Lee gear is to everything else ever invented.

[rugersol]

if a little square plastic ratchet washer part gets screwed up, which is easy to do, which is why, if it's like my kit, they gave you a couple extra ones.

I bought a few extras of them, when I first bought my Lee Turret ... first sign of trouble, I swapped in a new one ... no change ... then I greased up the turret ... THAT did it!

... even then, if ya can't get no rhythm, it can still be purdy annoying!