California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

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California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby bangbang on Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:24 pm

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 9742.story

Poor Slobs. Why does California have it's head so far up it's Ass.

Portantino said open-carry supporters don't realize how they complicate matters for police, who can have a hard time distinguishing between armed criminals and armed activists.

"Open carry puts law enforcement and families at risk on Main Street, California," the lawmaker said. "It wastes law enforcement time and attention dealing with unnecessary 911 calls about gun-toting men and women in coffee shops, restaurants and malls."

His measure was endorsed by Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca, the California Police Chiefs Assn. and Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck.

"We need to limit the number of guns in public, not increase them by wearing them on our hips," Beck said. "This is not Dodge City…. We are a modern civilized community, and we should work on peaceful solutions to end criminal behavior."

This summer, former LAPD officer and county fire captain Gene McCarthy walked into Tony's Italian Deli in El Segundo with dozens of other open-carry advocates, wearing a holstered 9mm Glock and a magazine of ammunition. He said no patrons seemed disturbed by the display of firepower.

McCarthy contended that California will be safer if upstanding citizens can continue to display their guns, because criminals will be less likely to act if their potential victim is armed.

"I personally saw the grief and misery caused by violence," he said in a recent interview. "We have to protect ourselves and our families."

Brown has until early October to act on the bill, and his past comments and actions on the issue of guns have sent a mixed message. In April, he told a gathering of police officers that it is natural for people to have guns in their homes, and said he owned three firearms.

During a 1992 presidential debate, he argued for a moratorium on gun sales. In 2009, then-Atty. Gen. Brown filed a brief favoring the National Rifle Assn.'s attempt to overturn a gun ban in Chicago. "California citizens could be deprived of the constitutional right to possess handguns in their homes," he wrote.

Last year, when Brown was California's attorney general, his office filed a brief to uphold the Riverside County conviction of a man for breaking the law by carrying a loaded, concealed weapon in a vehicle, despite the man's argument that the law infringed on his constitutional right to bear arms.
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby jdege on Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:33 pm

Maybe it's just me, but I've not seen a lot of criminals running around open-carrying.

Or carrying concealed in a proper holster, either.
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby rockcreek on Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:41 pm

If the ban does go through, that leaves most Californians no legal means to carry at all. I would imagine it could find it's way to the supreme court and have national implications for the right to carry. After all the second ammendment says "keep AND BEAR arms".
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby EAJuggalo on Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:40 am

The Supreme Court has found nothing abridging about having "May Issue" in states like CA, HI, NJ and MD.

jdedge, I recall reading a statistic once that stated 98% of those carrying illegally were not using a proper holster. I have no idea where I read that or when, just that I did.
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby tazdevil on Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:51 pm

"We need to limit the number of guns in public, not increase them by wearing them on our hips," Beck said. "This is not Dodge City…. We are a modern civilized community, and we should work on peaceful solutions to end criminal behavior."



Yeah, as the criminals are really working hard on resolving anything peacefully. I'm just glad the bulk of the wacko's who are anti gun are seemingly stuck in one state. One thats a few thousand miles from us.
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby nyffman on Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:33 pm

rockcreek wrote:If the ban does go through, that leaves most Californians no legal means to carry at all. I would imagine it could find it's way to the supreme court and have national implications for the right to carry. After all the second ammendment says "keep AND BEAR arms".

I'm pretty sure that this was the point made by the NRA while this bill was being discussed. Absent even this lame, unloaded open carry, California would seem to be in violation of the right to keep and bear arms provision of The Constitution which has been upheld twice recently by the SCOTUS.
our quarrel is not about the value of freedom per se, but stems from our opinion of our fellow men … a man’s admiration of absolute government is proportionate to the contempt he feels for those around him --Alexis de Tocqueville--
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby jgalt on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:15 pm

nyffman wrote:
rockcreek wrote:If the ban does go through, that leaves most Californians no legal means to carry at all. I would imagine it could find it's way to the supreme court and have national implications for the right to carry. After all the second ammendment says "keep AND BEAR arms".

I'm pretty sure that this was the point made by the NRA while this bill was being discussed. Absent even this lame, unloaded open carry, California would seem to be in violation of the right to keep and bear arms provision of The Constitution which has been upheld twice recently by the SCOTUS.


Both Heller & Macdonald (H&M) struck down laws banning the "keeping" of arms at all for self-defense purposes, leaving the "to bear" portion of the amendment without effective comment.

Post H&M, I wouldn't be surprised to see "may issue" challenged on equal protection grounds, but even if that were successful, that wouldn't automatically rule out a ban (at the state level) on everyone carrying. There were founding-era laws banning the carrying of firearms, including pistols, which were not considered to be unconstitutional, so the originalists on the court won't have quite as strong an argument to make as they did for the "to keep" portion...
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby nyffman on Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:15 am

There were founding-era laws banning the carrying of firearms, including pistols, which were not considered to be unconstitutional, so the originalists on the court won't have quite as strong an argument to make as they did for the "to keep" portion...
Sounds like the beginning of another SCOTUS case. Now, you're not saying that the fact that a law was not challenged means that it was constitutional? I believe this can and will be challenged. Another in a long list of reasons making the 2012 Presidential election very important. There could be as many as three justices appointed by the next President.
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby Erik_Pakieser on Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:47 am

This has been pointed out before, but bears repeating:

Adam Winkler, a UCLA law professor who has written about the history of gun control in California, said there is an ironic parallel between the open-carry zeitgeist and the event that led to the state's first modern gun control laws.

In 1967, armed members of the Black Panthers marched through the state Capitol to protest police attempts to disarm them. A provoked Legislature responded by passing what was then one of the most sweeping gun control measures in the country, banning the carrying of a loaded gun in public.
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby jgalt on Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:00 pm

nyffman wrote:
There were founding-era laws banning the carrying of firearms, including pistols, which were not considered to be unconstitutional, so the originalists on the court won't have quite as strong an argument to make as they did for the "to keep" portion...


Sounds like the beginning of another SCOTUS case. Now, you're not saying that the fact that a law was not challenged means that it was constitutional? I believe this can and will be challenged. Another in a long list of reasons making the 2012 Presidential election very important. There could be as many as three justices appointed by the next President.


Nope - I'm simply saying that there has never been a case that made it to the Supreme Court that explicitly ties a right to carry a firearm of any type, for self defense purposes, outside the home, with the 2nd Amendment, and that those justices who voted with the majority in Heller - i.e. the one's most likely to use history as a major support for their legal opinion - will find the historical evidence much murkier regarding an individual right to do so.

Do I believe that right exists? Of course. Based on the reading I've been doing recently (I'm sitting in on a US Constitutional History course, focusing on the 2nd Amendment), do I believe the 2A guarantees that right? That's harder to determine based on historical evidence...

Do I believe that if it were determined the right to carry a firearm for self defense purposes was not guaranteed by the 2A, this would mean the right to do so didn't exist? Absolutely not. There are a number of SCOTUS cases where justices have no problem with individuals using firearms for self defense, and they have never relied on the 2A as justification for doing so...

In summary - it would definitely be easiest for us (those who would like "to bear" arms for self defense purposes) if some future court decision stated clearly that this is a right guaranteed by the 2A. But pinning all our hopes on a particular favorable interpretation of a particular amendment, especially given the historical evidence as a whole, is neither necessary nor the best strategy.

My $0.02...
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Re: California Open Carry Ban on Gov's Desk...

Postby nyffman on Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:37 am

Regardless of where it is challenged, it will be challenged. Whether on 2A or other grounds, it will be challenged. Probably, first in CA. That is assuming Brown signs the bill, which actually isn't a sure bet. And, unlike MN, the NRA has an active presence in CA and has already indicated their intentions, should this become law. But thanks for the history/Constitution lesson.
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